CHARLESTON, W.Va. – The state Department of Health and Human Resources is no longer in contempt of court.

On Friday, Kanawha County Circuit Judge Duke Bloom lifted the contempt filing when the DHHR submitted a plan for pay raises for workers at the state’s two psychiatric hospitals — Mildred Mitchell Bateman Hospital in Huntington and William R. Sharpe, Jr. Hospital in Weston — during a show cause hearing.

As part of the DHHR plan, pay for some workers will be brought in line with those at facilities located near the two hospitals.

The contempt order was first issued a month ago after Bloom found the DHHR had not adequately addressed a number of ongoing issues, including staffing shortages, at the two facilities. He told the DHHR want he wanted in its plan and they came back with the language the judge had ordered and he approved it.

Bloom rejected three DHHR proposals, offered in June, that had included turning the mental health facilities into private facilities or changing the classifications of the workers to allow for more scheduling flexibility.

State DHHR Secretary Karen Bowling issued the following statement Friday evening:

“I am very pleased that Judge Bloom lifted the contempt order in today’s court hearing. My focus continues to be supporting the hardworking and dedicated employees at our two mental health facilities as they provide quality health care to those we serve.”

 

 

 

bubble graphic

59

bubble graphic

Comments

  • Tyrone

    How many state workers does it take to fill in a pot hole?.........8 one to drive the asphalt truck one to scoop and fill and one to press it or stomp it in...5 to watch

  • susanf1218

    Aaron, Yes I am quite aware of how state government awards contracts for work - bid it out, get at least 3 bids, award the contract to the lowest bidder, etc. But, as in the case that I mentioned, you get what you pay for - projects that run way over the deadline. As for your idea of doing away w/the expiration dates for driver licenses and license plates - do you think the state would ever do that?? That would be a significant loss of revenue!

    • Aaron

      You claimed cost overrun by one contractor as validation for not privatizing DOH. I was merely pointing out that the only cost overrun require state approval and change orders.

      I know the state will never eliminate the taxes (the state calls them fees but it's still a tax) because of the revenue which has to increase to keep space with state spending and that includes an ever expanding employee pool.

      • the truth

        I can point out one huge contract that is a mess. The state is the process of a hundred million dollar contract concerning the a new computer system to pay the states bills and run other programs. The scary thing is it is the same company that did the affordable care act website. It is a disaster and I am amazed the politicians have kept it out of the news. You have local DHHR offices in which utility companies are threatening to turn off service for non payment. No employee has been reimbursed travel expenses for two months. (A lot to ask for employees you pay nothing). I have viewed many contracts that the state has with private vendors and most of them are junk. No penalties for non performance. I see dead weight in employees working for the state but I have seen the same in the private sector. One wants to cut state employee numbers, that is fine but I suggest we start cutting services also because we cannot afford to do one without the other.

      • susanf1218

        Oh baloney!! Have you SEEN how many job vacancies there are in state government that are going unfilled?? Because the state pays so poorly that agencies can't attract or retain employees. And don't forget that state agencies were mandated to cut costs, some of which was done by attrition. And I am quite sure that my one example of how privatization didn't save the state money is just that - only ONE example. I'm quite sure there are others. But of course, you think that all the state's problems are just due to us evil, overpaid, underworked state employees and if only the state would privatize everything then there wouldn't be any problems at all! You have it all figured out, don't you? At least in your mind.

        • Aaron

          It looks like we have come full circle in our conversation. The state may pay lower than the private sector but the overall compensation package is higher for state employees. That is a fact you can deny, argue or ignore bit it doesn't change that very simple fact.

          As to the paving contractor, you've offered no proof that state employees could have done the job cheaper? Do you have any?

          • The bookman

            Aaron,

            Suffice it to say, you deserve a medal. It is a medal that even gilded in gold would not have been worth it! If I had your address I would mail my "My Sheetz" card with all its associated points.

          • Aaron

            If private contractors do not do a better job, why are they the ones building all the roads and bridges? The DOH builds nothing. They patch roads here and there and occasionally will pave the approach to a bridge but other than snow removal, they do NOTHING efficient except waste millions of dollars.

            Every company I've worked for has short term disability which is a better program than the state. As it is though, I've not called for the state to model their benefits after anyone, my comments are simply factual regarding the total compensation package, a fact you continually ignore.

            And I do have a life outside of work but I'm not looking to make my hobbies a full time gig, I certainly don't want to garden and I'm not going to set around home waiting to die. I have other plans that I fully intend to indulge in once I reach a certain age. Thanks for the concern though.

          • susanf1218

            So your private employer doesn't provide sick leave? And THAT is the model that you think state employment should follow?? Your employer(s) probably used the personal days model in which you receive an allotted number of days off which you can use for either sick leave or vacation or whatever - a total scam. But if you are happy w/it, go for it. And if you want to work until you die or your kids put you in a "home", good for you. But some of us have a life outside of work.
            As for the awarding of contracts, I understand that the low bid gets the job. All I'm saying is that you get what you pay for and the idea that a private contractor can and will do a better job isn't necessarily the case. But I do agree w/you that the bureaucracy that is involved in state purchasing is ridiculous and needs to be reviewed; again, the problems occur at the higher levels of state government, not at the front line level.

          • Aaron

            Federal law does not allow states to give preference to in state contractors over out of state contractors on bid jobs. This job was bid and the lowest bid won. The amount they bid the job for is what they were paid so there were no budget overruns as you have erroneously stated twice.

            If anything, the contractor was monetarily penalized for exceeding the completion date unless there was a change order and those are difficult to get. They most frequently are issued if the state missed something in letting the project.

            As to the benefits, the reason my mind is closed is because those are the facts that not even you can dispute. I've linked studies for you and others that give definitive information supporting my stance. The question isn't why my mind is closed, it is why you continue to ignore the facts.

            I've interviewed a couple of times for state jobs but in the end, I chose the lack of bureaucracy over the pace of state work. I don't get as many vacation days and I've not worked for any private firm that has sick days and while the defined retirement package would have been nice, I've managed ok thus far. Besides, I'm not one that sets very well so I plan on working until I die or the kids put me in a home one. Does that answer your question?

          • susanf1218

            No, I don't have specifics. But if it isn't cheaper to pay private contractors, from out of state, why not use in-state resources?? And if out of state, private companies can't complete the job on time and w/o budget overruns, how is that advantageous?
            As for the benefits argument, it is obvious that your mind is as closed as a steel trap, so there is no point to continuing this discussion. But, as I asked earlier, if you think the benefits package is so great and that low salaries aren't a big deal, then why don't you apply for one of these great state jobs??

  • susanf1218

    Sasquatch,
    Are you stupid enough to not realize that state employees whom you hold in such low regard are taxpayers as well?? And probably pay as much or more than you do?? Oh, and since you feel that state government employees and the jobs we do are so unessential, please make sure that you don't avail yourself of any of the services we provide. Wouldn't want you to
    "compromise" your principles or worse yet, be hypocritical.

  • annonomous

    What I find most troubling about DHHR/State Hospitals is how administration looks the other way when it comes to patient abuse. Patient abuse is ramped at both Sharpe and Bateman Hospitals, yet DHHR, Hospital Administration, and yes even the "patient advocates", look the other way, and allow patient abuse to continue. It is sickening how patients are treated at both Sharpe and Bateman, yet nothing is done.

  • annonomous

    Good-

  • Ole Sasquatch

    If SusanF1218 ever had to work in the private sector she would have something to yelp about.
    All the Ole Sasquatch has to say is that if you have'nt worked in the private sector you do not even know the meaning of hard work.

    • susanf1218

      Dear Old Sasquatch,
      I have worked in both the public and private sectors. Don't even delude yourself that you have the market cornered on hard work. And I will bet you would "yelp" loudly and frequently if you weren't paid what you should be. Why is it that you think state employees deserve less?

      • Ole Sasquatch

        I have worked both. I was respected for my efficiency & hard work in the private sector and it was self satisfying. In the public sector there was no hard work except in the payroll and benefit department. My estimate for the others would be about 10% efficiency and a bunch of employees having time to whine all day about being underpaid - like yourself.
        Then there was this extreme amount of brown nosing. That is how respect was accomplished in the public sector. I imagine your nose is quite brown.
        There is no comparison between the public & private sector. The private sector gets the job done - they have to or their out of business and they do it at a fraction of the cost of the public sector.
        Now talking about delusion how many people you think you have deluded today? Appears to me all these people are not buying what your trying to peddle.
        Child if you don't like what you are being paid get off your sorry butt and get a real job and produce something real and quit deluding yourself.

        • susanf1218

          Dumb Liberal and Ole Sasquatch - both of you make outrageous assumptions which are not even remotely close to the truth. In your case Sasquatch, I imagine your career in the private sector was quite limited as it doesn't appear that you are educated enough to have gotten very far up the career ladder. From your comments it sounds like you worked in a factory somewhere. Nothing wrong w/that and I don't doubt that you worked hard and had to be productive. I am not disparaging what you did, but I would appreciate the same courtesy toward myself and other state employees. Here's a radical concept that you obviously hadn't thought of - WORK comes in many forms - some manual, some not. And just because other people don't do the same kinds of work as you, it doesn't give you the right to insult them and accuse them of being "lazy" or "brown noses".
          As for DL, you are the epitome of stupid. I graduated w/2 undergraduate degrees, was on the Dean's List throughout college, hold a Master's Degree, and a professional registration in my field. Can you say that you have accomplished ANYTHING even remotely close in your miserable life? Didn't think so. You are so contemptible. Is your bitterness toward state government/agencies personal?? Maybe YOU couldn't get hired, perhaps? Or maybe you have issues w/the DMV?? Whatever it is, the fact remains that you are nothing but an angry, bitter, uneducated fool.

          • Ole Sasquatch

            Ole Sasquatch's parents taught him early in life that nobody owes me a damn thing. My goal in life was to become self-actualized and independent which I achieved.
            Your problem is seeking financial security by depending on taxpayers who have little empathy for an over bloated, extremely poor managed govt. You need to grow up and make your own way in the world and not demean yourself by getting on this public outlet and shamefully begging for money. I know you feel tied into your job with your pension, ins. benefits etc. Put your big panties on, leave that job you really hate and become a self actualized person that still has time to enjoy life. Now I will give you the last word.

    • Dumb Liberals

      If SusanF were to have the state nipple removed from her mouth, she'd starve to death. She's a leech on the taxpayers. Hey Dishonest. How's your love of the m0r0n and the entitlement crowd? Maybe Susan will share her entitlement teat with you. Just gotta love those m0r0n supporters.

      • susanf1218

        Care to share tax returns, DL?? I bet I have paid more in taxes than you have! So take your ASSumptions about me and shove them where they belong!

      • susanf1218

        You are an idiot!! I have worked my entire life since graduating from college. Furthermore, I wouldn't presume to tell YOU what you should be paid; although from your obvious lack of intelligence, I would say that you are definitely overpaid.

  • Dumb Liberals

    Were they not told the wage they would earn when hired? Not satisfied with your pay? Then you should have paid attention in school, studied harder and made something more of yourselves. This sounds more like judicial activism, very similar to the way abnormality is being forced down the conservative majority's throats. Yet another liberal judge decreeing his brand of social justice to the leftist entitlement crowd.

    • susanf1218

      I hope that "Dumb Liberals" never needs to avail himself of services provided by the state employees for whom he obviously has nothing but contempt. If so, hopefully he will be treated w/the same attitude.

      • Aaron

        I'm curious, I know not all state employees are "Fred's" and that many are actually good, hardworking individuals doing the best they can but in every story regarding the state, you make mention of "services" provided by state employees.

        At some point, do you think you can elaborate on what these vital services provided by state workers are? Perhaps if you could enlighten those of us who you claim trash state workers, perhaps we would better understand the obstacles you face?

        If you can that is...

        • Aaron

          "Are you that obtuse??"

          You know Susan, I like your consistency in your post and despite what you might think, I'm not trying to bash state workers so I hope I don't offend you too bad when I say taxpayers would be better off if the DMV, DOH and most other state agencies would be better off we're they privatized. I agree oversight should remain a public responsibility and the CPS workers are one function of government that are vastly overworked and underpaid but other than that though, taxpayers would receive better service at a reduced cost if most public jobs were privatized.

          To answer your other question, I'm not sure what my EX wife (you're shocked right) does other than she's a level 4 accountant.

          • Aaron

            I'm not sure if you understand how state maintenance programs are conducted. Projects are bid very specifically, down to the man hours requires by contractors with lowest bid awarded the project. Once the bid is accepted, a contract is signed and that is the set price for the project. It cannot be changed without change orders which require state engineer approval. All contracts have a completion dates and any overrun results in the contractor being financially penalized.

            I think he waits at the DMV occur because the state has far too many people coming to locations for services that should be completed either online or elsewhere. If the state were to eliminate the expiration of drivers license and license plates a significant need for DMV services would be greatly reduced.

          • susanf1218

            Yes, I seem to recall that there were still issues and problems after BrickStreet took over the Worker's Comp. system. I don't disagree w/you that there is entirely too much bureaucracy in state gov. and the higher ups are usually the cause of much of the dysfunctionality, not the front line workers. But unfortunately, the front line workers are the ones actually doing their jobs and doing them well, for the most part, for very little compensation. As for the DOH, I have to disagree that privatizing the work means a better product. I watched as Rt. 33 from Buckhannon to Elkins was being resurfaced last year. It was contracted out to different companies, one of which was from out of state. Not only did they miss the deadline for completion of the project, it undoubtedly had budget overruns.
            And, did you ever consider that the reason for visits to the DMV taking so long is that perhaps they are woefully understaffed? And that the idea of "consolidating" the DMV into regional offices resulted in increased customer demand for which adequate staffing has not been provided? Seems like the old system of having a DMV headquarters in each county wasn't so bad.

          • Aaron

            Actually she does Susan. She's mKing ~$2400 less per year but gained 5 days vacation time, 18 days sick time she didn't have before, 7 additional holidays, 2 retirement plans and job security in that she knows she will not lose her job if the economy gets worse.

            Her chief zcomplaint is the levels of bureaucracy that prevents her from adequately do the job she was hired to do. State workers compensation suffered from the same levels of bureaucracy that resulted in inefficient service to the customers leading to increased cost to taxpayers.

            Once privatized, Brickstreet was forced to improve their product and even at that, additional vendors created lower premiums with better services to not only West Virginia businesses but government municipalities as well as numerous have lowered their workers compensation costs.

            Both the DMV and DOH could benefit from private competition as well. You mentioned drivers license renewals as one vital service. Anyone who's ever been to a local DMV knows that agency is anything but efficient as customers often are subject to long waits for simple services that could be completed via the Internet. Granted the state is starting to use online options for the most rudimentary services but a private company would utilize increased technology as well as extend service hours for services that required in person visits but our government still requires customers come to them during working hours.

            As to the DOH, all one has to do to see his taxpayers could benefit is to look at the cost of equipment spent to provide the simplest of services. Bid that work out to private companies, take the equipment and the labor cost off the books and save taxpayers millions.

          • susanf1218

            Again, Aaron you have failed to answer my questions - does your ex-wife feel that she is adequately paid?? As to Worker's Comp., doesn't that also apply in the private sector?? Not sure what you mean.

          • Aaron

            Workers compensation proves your claim incorrect Susan.

          • susanf1218

            No, Aaron I am NOT surprised that she is you Ex-wife! As to your argument that most services would be better if they were privatized - hardly likely that they wouldn't cost you more, b/c the companies which provided them would be "for profit" and that cost would be passed on the consumer. On the other hand, the state employees might be better off b/c the wages/salaries would be better. Hmm . . . interesting idea.

        • susanf1218

          And what, exactly is it that your wife does, Aaron? Is she satisfied w/her compensation? Does the fact that your children can be enrolled in PEIA more than offset the lower salary? Or maybe she is one of the few state employees who are at the highest level in the DOP pay scale, which is something most people will never attain. As for retirement, could you retire at age 55 and live on half of your current salary? Probably not - which is why you don't see many state employees opting to do that either. If they had received salary increases throughout their years of employment instead of them being stagnant, then perhaps it would be different, but most state employees who would only receive 15-20,000/yr. in retirement can afford to live on that alone if they aren't to the age to begin drawing Social Security. So, I would suggest you keep your trap shut when it comes to discussing the status of state employment b/c you don't have a clue!

          • Dumb Liberals

            Guess you should have study harder in school. Then maybe you would know how to compile a resume' that would have gotten you a GOOD job. Instead you opted to be stagnant in life, the same as you were in school. You either dropped out or considered graduating the 5th Grade was far enough, and it shows. Ignorance on your part is not an excuse for a wage increase. It is however, proof you are stupid.

        • susanf1218

          Are you that obtuse?? How about every time you go to the DMV for something? Or if you are unfortunate enough to need the services of the DHHR - you know for applying for Medicaid or Food Stamps or such? Or how about keeping the roads cleared in the winter? Or maybe you have lost your job in the private sector and need to apply for unemployment benefits?? Or you want someone to keep an eye on those who are incarcerated in the state's prisons?? Or maybe someone to watch over the state's natural resources and make sure there is at least some level of compliance w/environmental regulations??Shall I go on??

          • susanf1218

            Dumb Liberal,
            First of all, I don't work for DHHR or DMV. But since you find both of these agencies so useless, tell me this - just where will you go to get your DL renewed? Or your vehicle registration? Or if you happen to need any of the services provided by DHHR?? Yeah, didn't think about that, now did you?? You are a REAL sharp one there!!

          • Dumb Liberals

            I love it!!!!! She references the 2nd worst operation in the state - DMV!!! Great analogy. You work the worst operation - DHHR. They are the scum of the state bucket.

          • susanf1218

            Oh, and let's not forget the difficult and often thankless job that CPS does to try to protect the children of this state who are in abusive, neglectful and often dangerous situations. They are overwhelmed by the caseload and are asked to do an almost impossible job for which they are not well paid. But maybe you don't consider the welfare of children to be an "essential" service. Or maybe when your granny or grandpa needs to go to a nursing home and has depeleted their life savings and need to get Medicaid in order to pay for their care - nah, that's not an essential service either, now is it?? I'm sure you will be more than willing to take on their care in your home with NO assistance from CNAs or other medical staff who provide essential care to the elderly - again for far less than what they deserve to be paid.

    • the truth

      If you look at the Division of Personnel website it looks like employees have multiple ways of advancement. However, buried in all of it is a sentence that Tomblin has ordered no pay increase based on merit. So the only way is to job hop. It is not judicial activism when pay and resulting staffing shortage is causing deaths at these facilities. Sorry to tell you but many jobs with the state require a higher level of education, just because the state wants to pay them like high school drop outs does not mean they have no skills. Hence the terrible turnover.

  • the truth

    I smell another DHHR snow job on Judge Bloom. Let me see. I believe we have been waiting for five years for the Division of Personnel to revamp pay and work classification system under the Hays Group. I know they spent a about half million dollars on that and you hear nothing. How much you want to bet they study if for a couple more years and do nothing concerning they pay problem. Next issue is the caseload standards. DHHR is in violation of state code that ordered them over 9 years ago to come up with reasonable caseload standards for CPS workers and Economic Services. It is not rocket science as this has been studied extensively nationwide with a clear understanding on what the workload needs to be to have effective workers. DHHR has no case load standards so they lurch from one crisis to another and add in the occasional child death to really bring the problem home. After seven years of nothing the created a work group who gave their final findings over a year ago and I doubt Secretary Bowling even looked at it.

  • I'm honest at least

    Its nice when UE fought for these employees that they turned a blind eye to Hopemont hospital.

  • susanf1218

    Wish Judge Bloom would find Tomblin in contempt for not allowing any merit raises for state employees. He and Manchin have really screwed state employees!!

    • Aaron

      Well, duh, if you focus solely on money, yeah, state employees have it bad as private sector employees on 17% more than their state counterparts.

      So I'm curious Susan, How many of your vacation days, state paid holidays, sick time and early retirement are you willing to give up to equalize your pay with private sector counterparts?

      Studies which you have seen the links for show that West Virginia state employees total compensation package is 2% better than private sector counterparts. Would you give it all up for a 20% raise?

      • the truth

        Aaron,

        I believe you have no idea how dysfunctional most agencies have become under Tomblin and Manchin. I believe in a strict merit pay system and that is completely broken as the only way to receive a wage increase is by job hopping or these pathetic 504.00 so called across the board raise. You keep saying numbers show pay is better in the public sector because of the benefit package. I doubt that is true for front line workers. The only ones I see making a large salary are cronies of Tomblin. You can tell how broken it is because you have hundreds of vacancies in state government and no applicants. People entering the system as new employees have no incentive to stay. The so called benefit package has been cut away to nothing special. The state waste millions training people to have them go to the private sector every year. If you read the news you see articles every week where agencies are having issues of completing basic functions. Tomblin has used his employees like whipping boys for political gain and has done nothing except make it worse. The best Secretary of DHHR was Joan Ohl and the only competent one I have ever seen said if you work hard for me and I will work hard for you.

        • Aaron

          Has the state ever been been functional? Have employees ever received across the board merit increases?

          As to the benefits, where else does an employee state their job with 15 vacation days, 18 sick days and at least 12 paid holidays, affordable insurance and the job security of state employees?

          Add to that A defined benefits package that allows the employee to retire as early as 55 with a generous contribution package and it's easy to see how the state makes up for below average pay.

          My advice to those who aren't happy is simple.

          Leave.

          • Aaron

            I understand the benefits are earned on time worked AFTER working 6 months. Once you're in though, your in like Flynn.

            As to retirement, why do state employees need state insurance to retire when they have the Affordable Care Act. I would say that with the implementation that law, you will see many more state employees leaving early instead of less.

            The turnover rate has always been high at the state, particularly among the educated portions of the workforce; not so much for the Fred's of the state government. That is simply how it has always been and will continue to be as educated employees find with a little experience, they can make tons elsewhere and they don't need 2 months off work once the kids are gone.

            I don't disagree regarding ERT truth but the reality is, state government work is state government work and one governor isn't going to change that.

          • susanf1218

            As usual, Aaron is woefully misinformed. Thank you, Truth, for pointing out what he obviously doesn't understand.

          • the truth

            You do not start out but earn time each month towards those sick leave amounts and vacation time. It is not given to you but accrued by working. You will have no one who has been hired by the state in the last ten years be able to retire at age 55 as most fringe benefits concerning health care have been stripped away. You say not happy just leave, I can say that is what is happening. When you have a turnover of 35% yearly then that is exactly what is happening.

      • susanf1218

        Aaron, you keep beating that same old dead horse. Give it up. I am quite sure if you took a poll of state employees, the majority would say that the so-called "non-monetary compensation" which you think is so much better than in the private sector in no way balances or justifies the pitiful salaries. And to answer your question - a 20% raise in exchange for these "benefits"? Maybe I would . . .

        • Aaron

          Take it up with the division personnel then season. Or get a job in the real world.

          • susanf1218

            I happen to think correctional officers have both a "real" job in the "real world". Dealing w/inmates on a daily basis is as real as it gets.

          • susanf1218

            Aaron, why DON'T you just go get yourself one of those great state jobs?? I know the Dept. of Corrections is hiring, since they can't keep employees. Yep, you could go to work for less than $25,000/yr. and earn all that time off. But of course you would never be allowed to take it b/c you would get "frozen" and be forced to work 16 hr. shifts because there aren't enough employees willing to work for the pitiful wages that correctional officers are paid. So go have at it, Big Talker!

          • Aaron

            I do take it your reading comprehension is not a requirement of your current employment former state worker as I did not say get a real job, I said get a job in the real world. Despite what you might think, the two are vastly different.

          • Aaron

            I don't doubt your pay is much better but I would question the benefits aspect of your job. What company can you begin your employment by earning 15 vacation days, 18 sick days and at least 12 state paid holidays in addition to health insurance based on pay, retirement on the 80 year rule and both a defined and contribution retirement package. Please enlighten me as I would like to apply.

            You are correct on being a correctional officer, as I don't deal well with stupid people, I could't deal with it.

          • forner state worker

            Okay I was a former state worker in 09 and a correctional officer our pay sucked and the pay still does suck. Im working private sector now and make more and my benefits are way better. As for the comment get a real job those officers do have real jobs so don't go spouting that nonsense bet you couldn't deal with what they do every day!

        • Fred

          And aaron keeps his kids on the state insurance/peia.

          Hypocritical. Why doesn't aaron quit sucking off the state dime and get his kids on private insurance?

          • Aaron

            You have no idea what you are talking about Fred. Shows where I bashing PEIA? It is one of the positive benefits of a generous state employment package and a major reason why some seek out state employment. It is certainly not welfare as you are trying to imply with your tripe. Seriously man, if your intelligence level demonstrated were indicative of all state employees, WV would be in bad shape.

          • Fred

            Awww, Aaron is now backtracking. He clearly states just a few days ago, his kids were on the state insurance. Why don't you put them on your insurance in the private sector, tough guy? People like you, who on the down low take advantage and use state programs and then turn around and bash state employees every chance you get, are the worst kind of hypocrites. Typical, "gimme mine, screw you" types. Pathetic.

          • Aaron

            My baby is 21 Fred the oldest is 25 and you were proven wrong the last time you tried to spout your tripe.

            Anything else?