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10/22/2009

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Hoppy's Commentary for Thursday

Talkline Host Hoppy Kercheval

How bad has it gotten for coal companies fighting with the Environmental Protection Agency? Even U.S. Senator Jay Rockefeller, who once advocated outlawing surface mining, is mad at the EPA.

“I am angry with the EPA’s announcement that they will use veto power to revoke the authorized Spruce Mine permit in Logan County,” Rockefeller said in a news release. “It is wrong and unfair for the EPA to change the rules for a permit that is already active.”

The EPA took a baseball bat to Arch Coal’s knees last week with its stunning announcement that it’s taking the first step that may lead to the revocation of the Arch’s permit at Spruce No. one. The EPA said the mining “may result in unacceptable adverse impacts to fish and wildlife resources.”

This comes after ten years of permitting and legal fights that eventually cleared the way for the huge mine in Pigeonroost Hollow near Blair. That process, which included an Environmental Impact Statement and EPA review, led to one of the strongest mine permits ever issued in West Virginia.

Both the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the state Department of Environmental Protection signed off on the project. But now the EPA under the Obama Administration has reopened the fight using the Clean Water Act, something the EPA concedes it’s never done since the Act was passed in 1972.

“We are taking this unusual step in response to our very serious concerns regarding the scale and extent of significant environmental and water quality impacts associated with the Spruce No. 1 mine,” the EPA Acting Regional Administrator William Early wrote in a letter to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

Does that mean the EPA is worried that coal sludge will be pouring into the watershed? Not hardly. Rather, the EPA claims that the water quality downstream will be changed so that it won’t support certain very sensitive types of aquatic insects, which it incredibly considers an adverse impact to fish and wildlife.

Specifically, according to an EPA study, certain kinds of mayflies are not as common downstream from the valley fills. The EPA argues that these streams are then “impaired” because not as many mayflies are around, even though other insects may take their place.

The problem is that the EPA is using an excessively strict interpretation of the term “significant adverse impact” in evaluating water quality. We know mining will change what happens downstream; Good industry practices can reduce the environmental impact and protect the ecosystem.

West Virginia law already prevents a “significant adverse impact” on aquatic ecosystems, and by that standard the state Division of Environmental Protection and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers already approved Spruce No. one.

However, this current EPA is trumping the state DEP and the Corps, setting the standard so high that the downstream waterways have to be precisely as they were before the mining, mayflies and all.

This is impractical and potentially very costly to West Virginia because of the jobs that will disappear and the revenue that will be lost. Rockefeller, Gov. Manchin and others keep telling the EPA that, but it doesn’t seem to be listening.

User Comments

It seems to me everyone is worried about the State and what Obama is doing to it, as citizens of the State we should be. But a question we should be asking is will there be a United States of America left after Obama is out of office? That of course is if he is planning on leaving office someday. Obama is not only bad for West Virginia, but terrible for the USA! If we love the USA we should all be afraid of what he is doing to our country. I would guess most of the posters are older so our time might be shorter than most, but we should be afraid for our children and grandkids, they are the ones that will pay a really big price for what is going on now. I don’t care what party you belong to when it gets down to the fine print you had better be in the click, if not Obama and his henchmen will care less about you or your family. It is no longer about “What you can do for your country”, but how “Obama and his czars can take over our country”! (Czars controlled the USSR for many years, it was bad!)

Hoppy-

To quote Dr. Cox on the TV show Scrubs: "Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong! Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong! You're wrong! You're wrong! You're wrong! You're wrong!." Here is why: This is not an issue of protecting mayflies. It is an issue of protecting water quality. The mayflies are the canaries of the streams because of their sensitivity to various types of pollution and abundance in WV mountain streams (30-60%) of the insect biota. If they are not present, then there is probably something wrong. You're argument is like saying that mining safety laws were passed because too many canaries were dying! Don't spin this to sound like it is a save the whales movement where a bunch of people are trying to protect the mayflies when it is established that the endpoint of protection here is the water quality. You also imply that the mayflies are not a part of the wildlife? They are wildlife as defined by state law and federal laws. I realize that most people only relate to insects as nuisance mosquitoes and house flies and only think of fish when they think of aquatic wildlife. But the reality is that the insects are the first to be affected by pollution, long before the fish are impacted. If you wait until the fish are affected to react to a problem then you are too late. Want some proof? Go to Dunkard Creek. The creek and some tributaries have been rated as impaired for years due to high ionic sources impacting the insect community; the same stressor cited by EPA as being a major concern with MTR. Now the tipping point has been reached and the fish and mussel community has been wiped out indirectly (via algal toxins) as a result. Rockefeller criticizes surface mining and then criticizes EPA. That is a politician pandering, plain and simple. Don’t read anything into it more than that. And to imply that because a permit was done and written a decade ago as an excuse to go forward with something is silly. Generally if your knowledge about something changes, don't you reevaluate and reconsider, or do you just keep on going like before. This is not an Obama initiative either. This was in the works long before he was elected; before he knocked Clinton out of the race. Obama's administration coming in was only an opportunity for EPA to finally get out there and apply real science to these permits, which was not allowed under the Bush administration. Hoppy, I am surprised by this commentary because normally you look at all sides of things and don't seem to buy into spin. But this commentary looks like something right out of the coal industry spin machine.

Welcome back skipdog, er I mean Bob.

While you were busy trying to insult my intelligence, you avoided some of the very valid points I made. The windmill thing happened right here in the state. It was covered by this website and the outcry from the citizens of the communities was tremendous. Those meetings needed someone with a mop to dry up all those tears before someone slipped and got hurt. So perhaps I need to be a little more clear next time.

I am not saying that wind energy is bad, but the "not in my backyard" was used the entire time, and the eye sore and noise was the excuse they used.

In closing, you avoided the tax issues about "real" growth, spent half of your post showing how immature one can be by pointing out how stupid you think I am, and got it all wrong on my stance about windmills, because you read what you wanted, not what I actually typed.

No, 95Bulldog, it's "wont." It's a different word from "want" and one you apparently never learned. You might want to try keeping up with "It Pays To Enrich Your Word Power" in the Reader's Digest; that, or buy a dictionary. Your choice.

The linguistic business of calling my party the "Democrat" (as oposed to its actual, registered, well-known name: "Democratic") Party is a deliberate ploy on the part of the Republic Party (see how it works?)that has taken place over the years. It began with a list of words that were published and handed out by Newt Gingrich to use when talking about Democrats back when he was hustling his "Contract On America." Look it up.

Your paranoia about why the EPA is finally doing its job is quite risable. Off to the dictionary again for you! At any rate, here's the more rational scenario: the EPA will approve some permits and veto others, as it is wont to do. The approved permits will allow blasting and destruction near peoples' homes with no compensation to them for the damage done. The disallowed permits will cause great sturm undt drang (sorry, you'll need a German/English dictionary for that one) and the coal companies will once again squeal that they're being driven out of business while they giggle back to the bank . . . again.

Your argument about wind turbines is wholly specious. Have you ever even been near one? The things are three hundred feet tall. The sites are usually far from any habitation. The noise is negligible. Ask the Dutch. They've been dealing with them for generations, to no ill effect. They even plant tulips around them and make tourism money from them.

It sounds like you're a fiscal conservative. As such, wouldn't you like to eliminate your power bill? You can do that right now with wind and solar. It's a bit pricey on the front-end, but it pays for itself rather quickly. The power company even has to buy your excess. Wow! Profit! Capitalism! Go, team! Sounds like a Republic Party value to me!

In the meantime, West Virginia's grasshopper-esque mono-economy will trundle along, oblivious to the terminus approaching, while people like Joe "Extraction State" Manchin bemoan the big, bad "fed'rul gummint." Once the coal is gone, our people will wring their hands and ask "Dang! Why're we so poor and sick? Where'd the coal companies go?" Some will say that; others, like me, will say "We tried to tell you, but you would not listen. Rest well in the bed you made for us all."

Ultimately, it's a matter of whether one has the ability (or desire) to try to look down the road toward our freedom. We can finally have the prosperity in this state that the out-of-state coal companies have promised for over a hundred years and never delivered. We can have a robust, diverse economy that lifts up West Virginians instead of beating them down, robbing and poisoning them. If we start working on it now, even at this late date, there's hope. If we continue down MTR's disastrous path, however, we're toast.

Hoppy,

In America private property rights are and always will be a basic right. It is a little over the top for people from West Virginia or other states to talk about "our mountains" when they have no ownership interest in the mountains. I have lived in West Virginia most of my life. I do not own any property there and those are not "my' mountains or "our" mountains.

Clearly coal mining results in externalities because their actions impact other property owners and "public goods" such as air and water. Most people would agree that these externalities should be regulated and minimalized with some balanced consideration given to job creation, taxes paid and the benefits of relatively low energy prices to consumers industry and society in general. EPA could fine the company in question or file an injunction because the company is out of compliance. However they have decided to pull a permit without explanation. Is this being used for leverage in ongoing debates about international global warming trends or cap and trade legislation? Probably. If these surface mining operations were all signatory would we be having these discussions? Probably not.

West Virginia’s economic prospects for replacing coal and particularly for replacing coal in southern West Virginia rank up there with “when pigs fly“. Our topographical constraints, our anti business climate because of special interest groups, legal climate, tax structure and strong anti business sentiments of a small group of people make it unlikely that we can realistically replace the jobs, wealth and taxes from the direct and indirect impacts of less coal and higher energy prices. It is a little disingenuous for people who are blatantly anti business to make predictions otherwise. How can someone make predictions about business investment behavior when they have no practical experience and knowledge about this process?

Bob, its "want" not "wont" to remind us(and take out the word "are"). See what I did there? To pick apart ones mispelling does not help any argument you try to make, but rather makes it look like you are grasping for anything you can to belittle a person.

Now to you your point Bob about "real economic" growth. This states tax code is so outdated and not business friendly. With this in mind, what company is going to want to start here? Any company can easily set up somewhere else and do much better.

As far as any wind farm project goes, I will quote you about the maggots comment. NOT IN MY BACKYARD. Companies have tried to set up wind farms and the outcry starts about "the eye sore" that is brought. Then the outcry continues on and on about the "noise" they make, and the ridges that must be set up to set them up in places that would be the most efficient, because the wind doesn't always blow.

There are a couple of ways this will pan out. One, either Obama does nothing and the permit will be the first of many to be revoked or denied. Second, people such as MoJo, Bryd, Jay, Rahall, will meet with Obama and behind the scene deals will be made. The deal will be something such as permits being granted and the EPA leaving WV alone. In return things such as Healthcare, Cap and Trade, and anything else Obama wants must be voted for unless WV wants the EPA to reopen their books.

Obama was elected on a platform of "CHANGE." And he's doing just that. Perhaps Joe Voter didn't think EVERYTHING was going to change... but Obama's not even gotten started yet...

CaptainQ, it's the "Democratic Party," not the "Democrat Party." Stop using Newt's little pamphlet. It's not like I referred to the "Republic Party." You are what you are.

You have, of course, in typical right-wing fashion, set up a strawman argument to replace mine, which you couldn't refute. This isn't about getting "even," it's about the simple fact that West Virginia voters clearly stated they did not wish to support the man who was ultimately elected president. Actions, as Republicans are frequently wont to remind us, have consequences.

I'll submit that part of the reason the coal companies were allowed to run wild and lawless in this state between 2001 and 2009 was because George Bush was giving the industry payback for all it did to help him get our electoral votes in 2001 (5 electoral votes that would've made the Florida recount irrelevant, by the way). It's called politics, and it's a contact sport. Your side lost this time through. "Get used to it," as we liberals were frequently told throughout those eight nightmare years in the wilderness.

Your attempt to cast Rockefeller, Rahall and Byrd as some sort of left-leaning environmentally friendly representatives is laughable. No one has more staunchly defended the ongoing destruction of our state and our future than those three. None of the three ever saw a mountain they didn't support blowing up. I suggest, however, that it's possible those three may be a little more enlightened than you. They at least recognize that the sun is setting quickly on West Virginia as what Gov. Joe recently called "an extraction state." Coal is finite and its finitude is becoming glaringly apparent.

We have a problem in West Virginia, and it isn't the EPA. Our problem is how we transition away from a mono-economy based on a resource that will soon be gone. The time to have been thinking about that was thirty years ago, but the coal industry, like the grasshopper of the fable, thinks only for today, and ripping all it can from our state.

Do you honestly think out-of-state corporations will stick around in West Virginia to help us transition after they've scraped the last hillside clean? If you do, that's sad, because our entire history speaks to the fact that they will not. They will leave us in their dust, laughing all the way to the bank, like they always have.

West Virginia's future is up to West Virginia, and waiting for the next corporate hand-out or Massey "Freedom" concert does not constitute and economic plan. Plans like the Coal River Wind Project that would bring good, permanent, highly paid jobs to southern West Virginia are part of that solution. Where's yours?

Thank you, BobKincaid, for demonstrating the mindset of the Obama Administration towards WV. In Chicago-style politics, you don't get MAD, you get EVEN and so Obama rejoices (in private, of course) over his EPA's attempts to dismantle the number one industry the Monutain State has. It's about time MORE voters like marden08 and see the Democrat Party for what it really is. I supported many state Democrats in the past, I doubt if I'll do it anymore.

A simple question: why should the Obama Administration do ANYTHING for West Virginia's coal industry? The WV coal gang actively campaigned against him. Lots of West Virginians helped perpetuate the "He's a Muslim" smear and the "He'll take the oath on the Q'uran" smear. 23% of the Democrats voting for Hillary Clinton in last year's Democratic Primary said they voted for her because they couldn't tolerate a person of color in the White House. Now Hoppy's mad because the Obama Administration isn't bowing and scraping to the coal industry that's despised him from Day One. Ha!

So, again: what does Obama owe to West Virginia?

Furthermore, Hoppy, as usual, couldn't be MORE wrong. WV law may SAY it prevents significant adverse impacts, but anyone who's ever actually watched the permitting process knows that the WVDEP is a failed agency that serves as little more than a rubber stamp for coal industry desires.

Mayflies are a "marker species." When you wipe them out, human habitation is going to become threatened as well. Clearly, however, Hoppy is far more concerned with corporate profits and corporate access to West Virginia than he is with West Virginia families who have to live with the downstream, downhill impacts of Mountain Removal. One may disprove Hoppy's assertion of "replacement insects" thusly: Hoppy, if we covered your yard in filth, likely the honeybees and butterflies would die off. They would be replaced by maggots and maggots are, after all, another KIND of insect. That would be OK, wouldn't it, Hoppy? Right? No? What's wrong? Poisoning a part of WV is OK as long as it's not in your back yard? Yeah, Hoppy, we get your point.

West Virginia desperately needs real journalism to speak truth to power about the horrors of Mountain Removal. As it is, Hoppy and MetroNews are little more than a localized version of Fox: a house organ for corporate and Republican Party talking points. That's not journalism. That's stenography. It's also something else that's frequently refered to as "the oldest profession."

Maybe, just maybe, if we can eliminate Mountain Removal and transition away from Big Coal's stranglehold on West Virginia's economy, we can finally see some real economic growth in West Virginia, instead of our being constantly buffetted by the bomb-boom-and-bust nature of a mono-economy's natural cycle. Now wouldn't THAT be nice?!

Congratulations, Hoppy! All those years of trashing Democrats have finally borne fruit and you have only yourself and your like-minded "conservatives" (read: "corporatists")to thank.

And here we are. The complete turn around. Now you don't like the central government. You don't like what they're doing. Now. Today. But you didn't mind during the past ten years what they did. And are still doing. It's about power. Did I miss something? Did you think it was about authority? It's about power. You just got slapped in the face and you don't like it. Tyranny does that. If it's done to your neighbor you don't mind. But if it's done to you.....oh, my, it just ain't right. Laws? Schmaws. We'll do what we want to do. Or haven't you noticed? The rest of the world has noticed. It's good to see that some of my hillbilly friends are noticing that we are in a major mess in America. Tyranny always hurts.

Well Hoppy, I really can't add much to what the other posters have said here (and what I've posted in the past about Obama's intention to get revenge on WV) other than this. It is very interesting how the 'regular' Obama/Democrat SUPPORTERS on this MB haven't really responded to ANY of these EPA-Gestapo atyle actions here. Could it be that they KNOW there's no way in hell they can come to the Obama Administration's defense on this issue? Even Cecil Roberts should have come to the realization that Obama and his fellow Democrats in Washington are NOT friends of the coal industry and could honestly care LESS about what happens to West Virginia. I wouldn't be surprised if Obama orders the FBI Center in Clarkburg closed and moved to Chicago or if he takes ALL Federal Funding away from the Mountatin State and then order the state to host the nation's newest Nuclear Waste dump. Obama's EPA is doing the 'dirty work' for him in punishing WV for its past electoral 'sins' of May and November. And MORE will come, just wait and see!

It is time for legislative action to reign in the role of the EPA. Inaction will result in the destruction on an industry, higher power bills, a declining economy, and a less secure country.

I have voted for many democrats in the past. This bunch of democrats is destroying the economic future of my state and they could care less. They have taken the tax money from West Virginia for a stimulus and bailed out their union buddies in detroit(uaw),California (teachers union) and davis bacon construction jobs (construction unions). And they don't care. They are creating an enemies list that would make Richard Nixon envious. And they don't care. I care and will never vote for a democrat again

Hoppy, As stated many times, THIS is only the beginning. My former plant announced it will be shutting down a department in 2012, they have been fighting EPA and environamental groups for sometime, they must have decided it is not worth the money. My question to all these people who HATE the companies, who will we work for, the government. WHEN we don't have anymore industry such as coal, steel, aluminum, chemical plants, where do we get the material if we are in an all and all out war. GOD HELP US!!II

Hoppy,

This, of course, is not about mayflies. This is about POLITICS. Dear Leader Obama or his political enforcer and sidekick Rahm Emanuel could call up Ms. Jackson at EPA and condemn the mayflies in a few minutes, but Dear Leader's administration is not going well and the decision has been made to end mountaintop removal mining without legislation as a bone to throw to the envirocrazies in the liberal base. The fact that protecting mayflies will put and end to 40 percent of West Virginia coal production, thousands of miner's jobs, and a significant state revenue stream is of absolutely no concern.

To all of those who think that miners jobs and families are more important than mayflies remember the names of Dear Leader Obama's staunch supporters in their next election and consider sending them back to the "private sector" for re-education:

Byrd Manchin Mollohan Rahall Roberts (as in UMWA President Cecil Roberts) Rockefeller

Keep in mind that mayflies are doing quite nicely in the many thousands of miles of West Virginia streams that will never be affected by MTR mining and the effected mayflies are very likely to recover sometime after mining.

The Agenda-pushers have hopped off the coattails and are now in control of the hen house.

The Politican that shouts only as the ship is sinking deserves the dunk.

The Voters must take the blame for the change that hate bought.

Mayfly 1 and Miner 0.

This State will learn that their day in Washington DC is coming to a fast end.

This Country will be reshaped into a likeness different from that which made Her great.

Our Children......God help our Children, please.

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