Business requires some level of regulatory certainty to be successful.   Shifting rules and patchwork guidelines create costly and time-consuming challenges for entrepreneurs who have enough to worry about with the rigors of the free market.

Last week, the Pennsylvania state Supreme Court threw the Marcellus Shale gas drilling industry into the ultimate regulatory maelstrom with its 4-2 decision to throw out parts of Act 13, the Commonwealth’s comprehensive oil and gas industry regulation.

One critical part of the court’s decision gives municipal governments primacy over state regulations on drilling, meaning each town can adopt its own set of zoning rules for the industry.   That’s a regulatory morass for the industry, but one they’ve had to adjust to anyway while the case was working its way through the courts.

Marcellus Drilling News, an industry newsletter, said, “there are some towns with boards packed with anti-drillers that will make drilling so miserable in that area… that drillers will likely just leave them alone.  Landowners lose out, local businesses lose out and taxpayers will certainly lose out.”

But those who have been fighting to preserve local control and limit drilling are hailing the court’s decision.  The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette quotes Deron Gabriel, Commission President of South Fayette in Allegheny County, as saying it’s a victory.

“Preserving zoning is vital to local planning efforts in order to keep industrial activity out of residential and commercial areas,” Gabriel told the Post-Gazette.  “Now we can keep industrial activities away from our schools and residences, and there has been more and more of a push to locate closer to residential areas.”

It’s possible that the Pennsylvania Legislature overreached last year with Act 13, setting up a push back from communities that are justifiably concerned about heavy industrial activity in their areas.  However, now the pendulum could swing back too far the other way, as drilling opponents use the decision to try to drive the industry out of the state.

In West Virginia, we have some of the same fights over drilling, but we have managed to avoid the kind of regulatory confusion they’re having in Pennsylvania.  In 2011, the Legislature passed a comprehensive gas drilling law that provides consistency for drillers, but also protections for citizens and property owners.

When the City of Morgantown passed an ordinance banning hydraulic fracturing within one mile of the city limits, Monongalia County Circuit Court Judge Susan Tucker wisely struck it down.  The Judge determined that a municipality could not adopt an ordinance that trumped the regulatory authority of the state Division of Environmental Protection.

Drillers in Pennsylvania may be able to maneuver their way through myriad regulations left in place (and soon to be expanded thanks to the state Supreme Court’s decision).  After all, drillers are going to follow the gas.

However, some of those operations may look now to West Virginia, which also sits on top of giant Marcellus Shale reserves. At least here, they know what the rules are.




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  • WVSon

    I suspect there will come a day when fracking turns out to be the most costly ecological disaster the US will have faced thus far. Why? Because everyone subsisting on well or spring water will find their sources contaminated. Municipalities will be forced to build water distribution systems they have no funds to build.

  • WV Redneck

    You can believe anything you want but what I have told you is the truth. The results of a spill as you stated isn't what's caused by what they put in the water, it's caused by what came out of the well with it. There are some bad things in any well that can hurt the environment.

    Nobody spoon feeds us bud. We are there and see with our own eyes what's going on and the simple truth you and others who have guzzled the anti-fraq kool aid refuse to believe is that the lies being put out by these people are just that, lies. They are designed to rake people like you in and get you to fight for them. You think their not getting rich off this bud? Think again. In the end, it's always about the money. And lastly, I guarantee you no one is going anywhere in PA any time soon.

  • Aaron

    I think you should start with your local politicians. From there, go to the state politicians. If that doesn't answer your question, start over.

  • WV Redneck

    Aaron, your exactly right. I've been trying to be nice and to help him educate himself but it seems when he goes out on the net looking for something to come back with all he's looking for is anything he can find that is bad and things simply aren't done the way he says and I don't know about him but I do work in the industry and have for many years and if they were doing anything to harm anyone or the environment I would be one of the first to sound the alarm. My company simply will not allow or put up with it and I think that's great.

    He wrote about using biocides and flocculants lol, no way that came from someone in the field and not off the net. It wasn't even his own words and it's obvious. It just isn't done like that.

    The bleach kills bactiera. When a vac truck comes to emptie a tank, if it's the normal condensate/brine he puts in a couple gallons of bleach first as it kills the bactiera and will cause the crap to fall out of the water. The water is usually black in this case but not always. Then takes it to the storage point and re-tanks it where what I said before is done. Well tenders will also put bleach in a well to control this bactiera as it can interfear with well production.

    And by the way Jason, chlorides are salts bud.

  • Aaron

    If you work for the largest Energy and Production company in Appalachia Jason then why are you fabricating facts regarding the industry. I'm not trying to defend drilling but I know a great many of your comments are inaccurate at best. If you oppose it then why lie and why continue to work in the industry?:

  • clearanceman

    We better be getting some money from this drilling as a state. After letting coal rape this state, so many streams are still destroyed from acid mine run off. I hope adequate profits offset our tradition of sending profits out of state and leaving a big environmental mess. Didn't a slurry pond collapse just a couple years ago? This is 2013.

  • Aaron

    By and large, liberals tend to oppose fossil fuels while conservatives tend to support them. I don't think anyone can deny that simple fact.

  • jason

    I've been working in production for the largest E &P company in the Appalachian Basin for the past 10 years. That's where my info comes from. When guys like you try to defend our industry by saying crap like "there's nothing toxic in that water" and "cheap non-toxic bleach does the job", you give ammo to the anti-energy nuts. Stick with well tending.

  • JoJo

    Actually, I do agree with your argument that MSHA and Washington are to blame too. But I was addressing your original premise that the problem is a liberal vs conservative situation. I don't think it is at all. My point is that both sides do not have a lock on the right point of view on any subject. Just sayin'.

  • MT

    The chemicals used in fracking are TOXIC!!!!
    I know this because my family has many acres that have wells drilled, and the drillers have told my family members that the chemicals used are TOXIC.

    REDNECK learn some chemistry it help you become more informed.

    Companies get away with it for now because of the war on coal by the bama admin. EPA is desperate to end the use of coal as we now it today.

    I am for coal and nat gas or whatever for energy
    however we all need to take a stand against the gov picking winners and losers by regulation.

  • Wowbagger

    How about a one party system since 1932? This suppresses any competition of ideas in state government and means that political choices are made by the party in power and then rubber stamped by the voters who have little real say in running the state. This is how the West Virginia good old boy network was created and how it is maintained.

  • Aaron

    I would also point out that I read in one of the local papers in the northern panhandle that in 2011 or 12, the Marcella Shale created over 450 new millionaires.

  • Aaron

    No, PA removed power from Harrisburg and gave it to localities.

  • Aaron

    Where are the local politicians in this. Like it or not, most County Commissions yield a tremendous amount of power locally. If you oppose gas, perhaps you should start there to see what you can do.

    I would also say that pointing out that a company is out of state is not relevant to the conversation as all the ones I am aware of are traded on the open market and are open to investment by West Virginians.

    Just saying

  • Aaron

    No. Which is why I've said from day one that higher ups in MSHA, including those in Washington should share a cell with Blankenship and members of the board.

    But it's been my experience that those who want to blame Blankenship for skirting the rules far too often apologize for government officials who allow it.

    Those crimes require participation by both sides to be committed, not just one and until you punish both sides, it's not going to stop.

  • RockJockPA

    The biggest battle is between the "Haves" who have oil and gas rights and want to develop it to provide financial security for their families vs. the "Have Nots" who will not get royalty payments nor directly benefit from drilling.

    The test for the municipalities in PA will be how to protect the private property rights of those who want to develop without enforcing defacto bans on development.

  • JoJo

    Yes I do agree. Let me ask you a you think Massey played by the rules at UBB?

  • Aaron

    How is it that big business and absenteeism owners are responsible for the actions of our local and state politicians?

  • Aaron

    Seems to me that would be a question for our local, state and national politicians.

  • Aaron

    How did Arch Coal break the rules at Spruce #1? How about AEP playing by the rules in in proposing 2 new power plants that would actually reduce emissions in shutting down 6 other aging power plants only to be bombarded by lawsuits and regulatory agency hoops meant to "bankrupt" the industry? Is that the rules you are referring to?

    I have no problem with playing by the rules but they should be fair to all stakeholders, don't you agree?

  • Stormin

    Look at what growing Corn is doing to this country, and around the World for that matter.
    People are starving to death high cost of Food but Worst then that is the environment.
    The pesticides run off are killing fish and wild life down stream of drinking water for Humans.
    the Ocean for 200-300 miles is green with Toxic poison No Fish for miles been going on for years it is High Time for Nat Gas Drilling.

  • Stormin

    Amen Brother!

  • Jason412

    You saying that fracking fluid is 99% water invalidates anything further you could say to me.

    I dont believe that for a second, and if you look at what happens after a wastewater spill its obviously not true at all.

    Cool you work in the gas fields, they spoon feed you the info they want you to repeat.

    If you read that article that park is 100% county owned. Obviously the guys running the companies arent smart cuz theyre about to get pushed right out of PA.

  • Shadow

    WV has the raw materials to make a variety of goods. It makes sense to transport a finished product to market over transporting the raw material. That means you have to have a business in the State to process the raw materials. However, the laws and the attitude of WVians against business is such the investors do it elsewhere. Doing it elsewhere also produces a "Brain Drain" and you are left with a lot of naysayers.

  • Shadow

    I read that the green material just beneath a potato skin is poisonous but people haven't stopped eating potato skins. The moral being: we don't know what we have been raised on as it is only in the last 50 years have we had techniques that will allow us to identify and measure to a high degree of accuracy. A good example of this is Global warming: measuring for years temperature at plus or minus one degree and then using it to predict to tenths.

  • Shadow

    You bring up the issue of Brine Water. I have always wondered why the salt that is put on the roads in the Winter is not called a pollutant by the EPA as it destroys the quality of the water and surround soil. If you would compare what amount of salt that is brought up by fracking and what is used for snow removal, fracking would be a very small percentage and very localized while snow removal is all over the State. Much ado about nothing in the amount from fracking. Snow, potentially a lot of damage over the years.

  • WV Redneck

    Oh and by the way, a well with just 10 to 15 pounds of "formation pressure" can lift the soap and a well with all kinds of "formation pressure" can and will be choked off by water if no soap is used.

    On low pressure wells like most here in WV you drop a soap stick or two and shut the well in for hours or even a day or two and let it rock up. Then open it and it will bring the fluid. If there's soap in it. If not, in both cases very little if any will come up unless your up in PA where the well head pressures often exceed 700 psi.

    If you can't get the water up that way they bring in a swab rig to pull the water out.

  • WV Redneck

    Again Jason you are mis-informed. Anyone can go on the net and pull out things you do. The two chemicals you mention are toxic in large amounts and also expensive which is why bleach is usually used. Cheap, non-toxic and does the job.

    Condensate is the fluid in the wells and pipelines and is composed mostly of water. It easily separates from the water upon standing. Like most everything else does and as I said the water is drained off the bottom and then filtered. The other fluids referred to as drip gas and crude oil is valuable and are collected and sold. Not pumped back down into the ground.

    These aren't water treatment plants Jason, they don't use water treatment facility technology to treat the water as you described.

    Flocculants lol

    Take an aspirin bud

  • jason

    1) HCl and biocide are toxic. They are supposed to be. Biocide is added to completion fluids to eliminate the growth of unwated bacteria in the wellbore and the formation. HCl, or a similar acid, is added to aid in the fracturing process. Drink either one and you're in for a bad night.
    2) "Condensate" is composed of heavier hydrocarbons(C2-C8, i think) that are often found along with methane (CH4) in gas bearing formations. The term has nothing to do with produced water.
    3) Produced water is naturally high in TDS, TSS, chlorides, ORM's and some metals as a result of being in contact with the shale reservoir, not a s a result of "mix(ing) with salt deposits."
    4) Soaping is only done in older wells that have lost much of their initial formation pressure and can no longer lift wellbore fluids on their own.
    5) No operators "bleach" their produced water.
    6) You have the process of flocculation completely backwards. Flocculant is added, precipitates form and settle out, clear water is decanted off the top.
    7) I'm sure there are some more up there, but reading your post over and over is giving me a headache

  • Dave, just Dave.

    I'm sorry Hoppy, but those protections for citizens and property owners are a joke. The rule is still gas drilling does what they want at everyone's expense.

  • WV Redneck

    Actually Jason, what your saying is propaganda lies. I work in the gas fields and know differently.

    Take an average Well of 5 thousand feet in depth. The 2 inch "tubing" as it's called runs to about 30 feet off the bottom. The rest is what's called the rat hole.

    A barrel of fluid, regardless of what it is, water, crude, drip whatever is 42 gallons. In the two inch pipe that equates to roughly 240 feet of pipe but when being "fracked" it's not in there yet but rather just the 4 inch casing so halve that. 120 feet per barrel. Now do the math and tell me how many trucks of water you need to do that well. The fractures are of little volume as their not the foot wide gaping cracks everyone imagines. Their actually a quarter inch maximum but mostly micro fractures. Seriously, it's rock and such. Think about it.

    And the fracking fluid you all worrie about before that gets started is 99% water. The other 1% is mostly surfactants (soap) and it's not left in the well or it would choke off any gas that's in there. Look up how much gas pressure it would take to lift up a 5000 foot by 4 inch column of water. You can't go by the weight of the water alone because the hydrostatic pressure is far more than that.

  • WV Redneck

    The parks themselves are state property but obviously someone else owns the mineral rights and by long standing laws regarding such they have the right to extract it.

    Go look at Chief Logan Park in Logan county if you are worried about the outcome. The footprint is very small and there have been no ecological issues even though the wells have been there for decades.

    Besides, a park is not your back yard or behind the school etc. The people running these company's aren't stupid guys. Their not going to invite trouble by drilling in such places.

  • WV Redneck

    Actually, no it doesn't. It's exactly how it's done, why and the results. Believe what you will but the facts are the facts.

  • JoJo

    I don't think that those "types of individuals" are against the gas industry. I think they are against the gas industry, or any other industry, not playing by the rules. And even you would agree (I'm guessing here) that when someone breaks the rules, it just isn't fair. Doesn't mean you hate the person, people just think it's unfair not to play by the rules. Although you may not care.

  • Jason412

    @WV Redneck
    "Some Allegheny County Council members, startled by headlines showing energy giant Range Resources may be willing to pay nearly $75 million to drill in a county park"

    "Range representatives confirmed they have offered Allegheny County $3.5 million up front and as much as $70 million in royalties over the next 30 years to drill under Deer Lakes Park, a 1,180-acre expanse straddling Frazer and West Deer."
    Are county parks private property? BS like this is why PA voted for stronger regulations.

    You clearly have been brainwashed by the company you or someone you know works for. It doesnt surprise me you dont understand more than what you're told to understand, but dont repeat it like its based in fact

    It may have started on private property, but it certainly wont end there.

  • jason

    Every single sentence you posted has at least one glaring inaccuracy.

  • Jason412

    "Each gas well requires an average of 400 tanker trucks to carry water and supplies to and from the site."

    Just because there isnt hundreds of individual trucks, doesnt mean it doesnt take hundreds of truck loads.

    A guy who drives a fracking water truck is the one who told me "hundreds" and after looking it up it seems he was right and you have no idea what you're talking about.

  • Fairport

    I am a liberal democrat excepting abortion. But I say drill, drill drill. Our country is going to bust at the seems in years to come. We will have and always have had accidents involving the acquisition of natural resources.

  • David Kennedy

    When West Virginia made it tough on the drilling companies about two years ago, those companies shifted their work to Ohio and the Dakota's.
    Now, (already) we have a glut of gas into the system and the exploration, drilling and delivery of the new gas is slowed down considerably.
    West Virginia will be the last state to see the expansion of these money producing fields.
    Leases are not being worked on and left to expire.
    Being a 'day late into the game will mean becoming a 'dollar short later.
    One company official from Texas told me this, "Things are different in West most other states, we are not asked for bribes.?

  • WV Redneck

    You would have been better off.

    Sometimes it's better to sit there and appear like you don't know what's going on than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Or in this case, type.

  • WV Redneck

    Great post except they don't drill in town. It's outside of town on private property so the towns having some say is moot. The land owner has the say.

    But for arguments sake. Say your a land owner and a gas company wants to drill on your property and your looking at thousands and possibly hundreds of thousands or more from it. But, your neighbors have equal say due to this new law and they just don't want them "fracking" trucks running up and down our roads so your out all that money.

    How ya feel about that wonderfull new law now? Cause that's exactly what is going to happen in PA.

  • WV Redneck

    You obviously don't know anything about Fracking! There isn't "hundreds" of trucks. More like 20 tops and they come in there one time for a day or two to frack the well. The drill rig while quite heavy makes two. One in and one out. You have a couple trucks, low boys that bring in an escavator or two and a dozer but they also only make two trips. In and out. A few trucks loaded with pipe also. Aside from that it's pick ups just like the ones everyone drives around here.

    It doesn't even remotely compare to when the coal trucks ran the roads here and the extensive damage they caused that it seems to me was rarely complained about.

    You people need to give it a rest. Either you have coal or gas, hopefully coal and gas to fuel your economy and the states more than healthy appetite for tax revenue or you can pay it cause they are going to get it from someone. You take both of them out of here and none of us will have a job let alone one we can raise a family on.

  • WV Redneck

    There is nothing "toxic" in that water. It came from the ground and is called condinsate. It becomes briney due to the fact it collects in the "rat hole" as it's called at the bottom of the well some 3 to 8 thousand feet below the surface depending on the well depth. This is were it mix's with salt deposits also.

    It is brought up primarily by a Well Tender who drops soap sticks down the well that forms suds and is carried out of the well to a separator and then into a holding tank by the gas. Once collected it is usually bleached and taken to a collection point where it is allowed to settle out and the pure water is take off the bottom, filtered and then put back down into a deep well.

    It is by far in better condition than when it came out. It would taste nasty due to the salt content but it wouldn't hurt you.

    Get your facts straight before you post stuff you don't know anything about ok.

  • Concerned

    Agreed. If they're going to drill, hire local. That way maybe there's more incentive to do it right. But in general, your comments are spot on.

  • Wirerowe

    Greg I always thought you must ?be a time traveller.this confirms it.

  • Joe

    Agree David. I always wondered the same thing.

  • Don Jr.

    If the town has the right to zone the rest of us, it certainly should have the right to zone these fracking wells.
    Generally, I'm against zoning and over-regulation and government interference altogether. However, this is one of the few cases when regulation is in order. Our fresh drinking water must be preserved.

  • Shadow

    Public roads are just that. Available to everyone, not just those that you want to use them. I see fracking trucks every day and night and they are driven responsibly and lawfullly and I am not offended. Every analysis of water pollution by fracking fluid that I have seen say: none, a fairy tale spread by those that are against everything but what they want. As to your property which would have had it value reduced by some unknown event, would you share any amount that it would have been increased by another type of event with the individual that was making the investment in the other property? Private Property is still private property, not community owned. If you don't like what your neighbor is doing, buy him out...

  • David

    Yeah but TD look at the quality of living in southern WV even back then. Was it that people cannot manage their money? Is it now that they still cannot manage their money. Why do they make so much yet look so poor doing it.

  • Cory

    If WV has been anti-business for years, why do the corporations own most of the valuable land and reap enormous profits? Something ain't adding up, there Neal. And on another note, who do you think own's the politicians? Business or labor?

  • Joe

    I'm not sure if some of you know who exactly runs and "oversees" the shale industry, but I assure you it is not the boy scouts.

  • Aaron

    It's interesting that liberal posters arguing against natural gas had no problem using natural gas as a primary reason for not only the decline of coal but as a primary argument in the elimination of coal mining.

    I said then that when the issue was gas extraction and fracking, these same types of individuals would have no problem turning their liberal bias against the natural gas industry.

    From the comments below, it appears I am right.

  • jake

    The toxic brine water that gets hauled and pumped under pressure into the ground in braxton county defies logic will never get me to believe this practice is harmless .Whats braxton county get out of it? Nothing ,other than that toxic dump down by elk river and a small earthquake every now and then....AND A FEW LESS COAL JOBS . TAX AND REGULATE THE HECK OUT OF THEM ,BRAXTON COUNTY...or let them deal with this aftereffect where they created it

  • BH

    Speak for yourself.

  • Gilbert Gnarley

    State fat-cat politics, promises of sustained development, gainful employment opportunities such as the Half-Billion Dollar Fracker, and catchy slogans such as "war on coal" are just a sideshow to attract attention away from the real power brokers in West Virginia. The Robber Barons of the nineteenth century are alive and well in 2013 and just as influential--they are easily identified by the word "Big" which precedes Gas, Timber, Coal, Pharma, Utility, etc.

  • Gilbert Gnarley


  • Wirerowe

    I agree that he best government is the best that is closest to the people. That that Is why the long held principle of primacy for the states in regulating federal environmental rules works best rather than exclusive control by EPA. As I understands it in the Morgantown case the argument in essence was made that the local areas did not have the staff capabilities to regulate complex drilling procedures such as fracking Makes sense to me. In Pennsylvania the argument was made that local zoning regulations should not be superseded by state regulatory procedures. Makes sense to me. One of the worst laws ever enacted in West Virginia was to give the West Virginia development office the ability to override local zoning and planning regulations. This law was passes because one developer did not get his way with the local planning commission.

  • TD

    and that's the real deal on the new gas boom, very few jobs will be produced, most of the drillers are migrant type workers who go from site to site all over the region. All that's left are some maintenance jobs and transportation workers.

    Back when we had over 100,000 coal miners employed in the state there was a great benefit felt throughout the economy, especially in southern WV where some of the counties boasted 100,000 plus population. Now with all the mechanization we have approximately 20,000 miners, the impact is not so great.

    Hopefully we can get something here other than the extraction workers, but this is WV and we have a long history of being used and abused by big business and absentee owners.

  • GregG

    It feels like I have been saying that since 1862. Why people cannot see this is beyond me.

  • mountaineerforever

    Good post, C.H. Despite the "war on coal", West Virginia is still the number 2 coal producing state in the country. Where is the windfall from the hundreds of Marcellus wells that have allready been drilled in WV? We remain at the bottom, and our state budget keeps shrinking. Why? As long as the extractive industries have the governor and legislators in their pockets, as they have since 1862, us "commoners" will not see a benefit!

  • C.H

    Someone brought up a great point , I would be interested in hearing comments about just why WV is still at the bottom of just about every good list and the top of every bad after all the Coal , Timber, Oil and Natural Gas and Wind we produce. We should be one of the richest states in the nation. Why have these riches slipped through our hands ? Where does the accountibility rubber meet the road?

  • Jason412

    How about you read the article. It makes for interesting reading if your participating in this conversation.
    "The court’s decision gives municipal governments primacy over state regulations on drilling, meaning each town can adopt its own set of zoning rules for the industry."

    If a town wants it, they have the option to allow it.

    As far as private property, the roads used for the hundreds of trucks each gas well requires are certainly not private property.

    You say "To me, it means that I can't come into your house, raid the fridge, and camp out in the TV Room, or use your car without your permission." But its fine for you to have hundreds of trucks going down a residential street and me having to deal with the constant threat of a wastewater spill happening on your property and poisoning my water?

    Who pays to fix the public roads? You, the private property owner? If one land owner in a community of 1,000 decides to get rich quick that's fine with me but if he plans to have the trucks traveling on state owned roads then it should be a community decision.

    You obviously have no idea the amount of traffic fracking requires and the effect it has on an entire community. This just gives the entire community the ability to decide if they want the traffic on their roads, or the chance of a spill in their water.

    Im on private property, but its illegal for me to blare music 24/7 because it effects my neighbors.

    Also, the house I live in will be passed onto me. So while I will be renting when I move back to PA, in the not so distant future I will own a property in WV. A few years ago my "community" voted against something similiar but involving a completely different industry. My property value would of decreased significantly, but they put it in the hands of the community, so it didnt.

    Im not against fracking, but if there was 100s of trucks passing by my house on the 1 lane STATE owned road I sure as hell would be against it.
    If my spring water was poisoned from an "accidental spill" from something I didnt benefit from at all, I sure as hell would be against it.

  • Mike

    I have one question.....Hoppy, do you or your family drink or use Morgantown city water?

  • Shadow

    It comes down to what the meaning of "Private Property" means. To me, it means that I can't come into your house, raid the fridge, and camp out in the TV Room, or use your car without your permission. You would like it to be such that if a group of people don't like you, they just write a law and make your home a homeless shelter and your car their local taxi. Obviously, you are a renter and would just move someplace else. Maybe, you should take a moment and read the Constitution, it make interesting reading.

  • Shadow

    As long as the locals pay for the loss, it would be OK. Stealing is stealing no matter what the libs call it.

  • Jason412

    Dont mind Shadow. Everything is a government conspiracy to him, even giving people the right to look out for their own property is "that Muslim obama overreaching and stealing from the people" in his eyes.

    The fact he's so anti-government regulation then says "the state should pay the people" when the people are the ones who will be deciding on drilling laws in their town, shows he didnt even understand the article but thought it was conspiracy worthy.

  • GregG

    As always.......your spot on mntnman.

  • Jason412

    Excellent post. I feel everyone here will be singing a different tune when a spill happens in their neighborhood.

  • Jason412

    Bookman, we are in agreement then. I didnt mean to imply that the actual process of fracking was the problem, when I know these problems are caused by spills and improper disposal.

    Note in my first post "I was all for drilling when I thought it would flood an area with job opportunities."

    I still support fracking if DONE CORRECTLY. However "including two blowouts at wells operated by Chesapeake Energy and EOG Resources and a spill of 8000 gallons of fracking fluid at a site in Dimock, Pa" is not doing it correctly.

    And while you're right to say contamination spills are a problem with any industry and accidents happen, they seem to be happening more and more often in the fracking industry. This is what I was referencing in my original post, the problems in Washington and Steubenville are directly related to "accidents" or improper disposal.

    If they dispose of the waste properly and hire West Virginian's, not people from the midwest, to drill WV then I have no problem with it.

    But my point is, the spills will happen here just as they do everywhere else leading to my original point of "I cant wait to see West Virginians when there are hundreds of dead fish in the streams" which will inevitable if things keep going the way they have.

    When I say direct result of the drilling that isnt just in reference to the well, but the entire process including disposal. It doesnt matter how safe deep fracking is if spills of 8,000 gallons of fracking fluid on the surface continue to happen.

    One spill in Wyoming County PA ended up in more then 250,000 gallons spilled.

    After the Deepwater Horizon spill we didnt let BP continue without new safeguards in place, but fracking companies just go about business as usual.

  • mntnman

    Hmmm. Government is best that is closest to the public. Government is most responsive when it is closest to the people. Yet, when it comes to dollars and jobs, many want to give control to the state. Well, I guess if the drill rig is not in view of your property, then you are fine with it being right down the road from someone else. If you do not have to worry about your ground water, then good, let Charleston decide where drilling can take place. Hey, I found a good source of gas, right down from a elementary school. But lets get it anyway because, well, some out of state company (who may work hard to keep it safe, or who may not) will bring in 12 jobs to get to it.

    That, in a nut shell, is the argument against Hoppy's proposition. Not that I agree with it, but there is a legitimate point of view in opposition to his. There may be a lot of opportunities to grow and have good jobs, but do those affected locally want them. Say, perhaps Hoppy would like a nuclear plant within a mile of his home. Great jobs! Lots of jobs. High paying! So lets get at it. Push safe, clean nuclear power.

    We need to get to the gas. We also need to let our local citizens have some rights to protect themselves. Its always easy to let someone else be burdened in the name of progress. How about we let those burdened have some input into the matter. Otherwise, I think that for every citizen burdened by wells and noise and traffic and water issues -- well, their legislators, the governor and Hoppy should be required to experience the exact same circumstance for as long as those locals have to experience it. Just so they can understand what it entails. It might be interesting to see what they think about all the jobs and progress when its in their back yard.

    Just sayin'...

  • GregG

    Can't argue that Scott. With the exception of a couple, most of the states elected so-call democrats lean more to the republican way of thinking when it comes to business. But as I have said many times, big business controls our government, regardless of a D or R beside the name of the elected.

  • Neal

    The reason we've been near the bottom in most economic catagetories is because the state has been anti-business for years, not the other way around.

    And thanks for calling everyone in the state poor and stupid. Young hard working West Virginians needed one more tiny reason to want to move away.

  • sam

    People from pa will come to wv and work. I guess the people of wv will not gain anything.

  • Travis Carrow

    Actually, this is a case of some of that government over reach beaing taken away and placed back in the hands of the locals. We could only hope that WV communities would be given the right to decide what is best for them.

  • Jeff

    Let's see...PA removed some power from out of state corporations and handed it back to the local people. PA has assured some measure of preservation for future generations. WV will be passing a toxic wasteland down to our children to inhabit. Undoubtedly still poor, stupid, and last in everything.

    I think it's quite clear who has gained and lost.

  • Scott

    You've also seen the Dems always in the majority and this state last in all major categories .

  • The bookman

    Government agencies have been trying for years to link deep fracking of wells to drinking water contamination and it just isn't geologically possible to suggest that the fracking fluids would migrate against gravity through layers of rock. Here is a balanced article I found that provides a lot of information I found helpful:

    I don't disagree that surface spills can result in contamination, but that isn't specific to oil and gas development...any industry has to guard against accidents, but the argument that the normal everyday successful fracking of a well creates polluted drinking water is false and takes the argument to such stories that are not grounded in science, but myth!

  • Jason412

    Thanks for showing how uneducated and lacking of common sense by calling me a Socialist, a word you obviously dont understand the definition of.

    Im as for capitalism as much as any person can be, I just dont think I should have to drink poison water to support capitalism. I guess wanting clean water is part of my socialist agenda.

  • Jason412

    The Marcellus and Utica shale formations span six states: New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Maryland and Virginia. Natural gas development in these six states was fueled by high commodity prices from 2000 to 2008. As prices have declined more recently, gas drilling activity has slowed while development of higher-priced oil has accelerated.

    “Shale drilling has made little difference in job growth in any of the six states we studied,” said Stephen Herzenberg, executive director of the Keystone Research Center in Pennsylvania. “We know this because we now have data on what happened, not what industry supporters hoped would happen.”

    "Region-wide, shale-related employment accounts for just one out of every 795 jobs. By contrast, education and health sectors account for one out of every six jobs."

    "Job growth in the industry has been greatest (as a share of total employment) in West Virginia. Still, shale-related employment is less than one percent of total West Virginia employment and less than half a percent of total employment in all the other states."

    "Direct shale-related employment across the six-state Marcellus/Utica region fell over the last 12 months for which there are data—the first quarter 2012 to the first quarter 2013."

  • GregG

    ............and you won't even have to kiss us or take us to dinner.

  • TheFungoKnows

    Go push your liberal leftist socialist agenda somewhere else. WV does not want it.

  • GregG

    You got on thing correct. I have a really big problem with Big Business. We as a state have let timber, coal, chemical and oil rape us over the years. And what do we have to show for it? Last time I checked WV wasn't the leading state in the nation for roads and bridges, education, wealth, infrastructure etc... But the likes of Don Blankenship are sure living large today. Now I'm not for "regulating" any business into bankruptcy or forcing them out of state. But allowing big business to come in and make billions while the state suffers is ridiculous in my opinion. And that is all I have seen happen over the years.

  • CaptainQ

    Rest assured, if these Marcellus Shale operations begin to be an economic boom for WV, Obama's EPA will work overtime to find/create rules to bring it to a screeching halt. They might even mimic what Pennsylvania did to hamper WV's progress in this fledgling industry. After all, Obama has little love for the Mountain State and based on the results of the past few Primary/Presidential elections here, the 'feeling' seems to be mutual.

  • Wowbagger

    My parents lived in Steubenville right after World War II when it was a booming industrial center. My father managed a tire business. I was born just after that when they moved back to a house they owned in West Virginia. I was brought up on stories about how pristine and wonderful Steubenville and the Ohio Valley was during the post war steel and coal booms. A lot of the refuse from that era is still around.

    Guys I know and trust in the gas industry tell me they are recycling 100 percent of drilling fluids now even though they suspect that recycled fluids are less effective.

  • tomahawk74

    Unless you are a taxpaying landowner, your objections to drilling and fracking are pointless and meaningless. Heavy regulation will only result in heavy taxes to line the pockets of politicians. Drillers, bring your rigs to the Mountain State. We welcome your economic gains and employment.

  • Wowbagger


    I know you have a big problem with business.

    I'm just saying that a state with relatively long borders with twinned population centers near those borders can either attract businesses, that pay taxes and create local jobs by being reasonably accomodating or drive those same businesses to the neighboring states. These businesses will exist in the region and will always seek the best deal.

  • TD

    This new gas boom is going to be great for WV as long as it is heavily regulated. No doubt there are good responsible people who will do it the right way but there are also many Don Blankenships (they always manage to rise to the top) out there who will cut every corner and they must be closely watched.

    We can't stop every time someone objects but the peoples voices and concerns should not be dismissed as environmental fanaticism.

  • Jason412

    Bookman please link me to some of these regulatory agency findings.

    Do you mean regulatory agencies like the EPA?
    "When the EPA conducted its own tests, it found such high levels of methane in the water supply of two homes that it posed a risk of explosion, the report says. EPA tests also showed that the water contained benzene, a known carcinogen, above the agency's maximum contamination levels."

  • Shadow

    This is another example of government overreach and disregard of the takings clause of the Constitution. The State should pay the land owners for their loss caused by this action.

  • Jason412

    The water was similiar to this, a video Im sure most of you have seen. Although I never tried to light it on fire, I probably could have. I cant find the video clip of that guys water in a jar, but I seen it before and my water in Steubenville looked identical

  • The bookman

    Gas, or better described, as Natural Gas, finds it's way into wells all the time...not a new phenomenon consistent with deep fracking...these oddities you describe have been debunked by industry and regulatory agencies alike but continue to be raised as issues of concern for public health safety by environmentalists opposed to energy development. It makes for interesting tv documentary, but falls more in the category of Bigfoot existence and Mayan Apocolypse than reality.

    This is nothing more than our government system in action, legislation that goes too far being reigned in by judicial review...tug of war that will result in workable regulations that will keep industry in check but also in the game. The Oil and Gas lobby will review it and work to position Pennsylvania's regulatory climate in a profitable place for development...I don't blame PA for their when you drive off the beaten path a little, industrial blight is pervasive in the Keystone state from decades of industrial abuse and lack of government regulatory control. They should be more careful going forward and I applaud local government for protecting the investments they have made on the front end instead of decrying the abuse in the aftermath and demanding remuneration...the way it should be done in my book!

  • Jason412

    Saying it smelled like gas was a poor choice of words, I apologize. It certainly didnt smell like something you'd want to drink or shower in.

  • Jason412

    "Pennsylvania's Department of Environmental Protection collected sediment samples from inside the discharge pipe at the site and found radium-226 levels some 44 times higher than drinking-water standards allow. Several tens of yards downstream, levels were 66 times higher than standards allow. Radium-226 has a half-life of 1,600 years."

    "between 8 and 20 percent of the waste is delivered to treatment plants, with the outflow entering local streams"

    "As for the radium, the researchers measured levels of radium-226 at the outflow some 200 times higher that levels found upstream or in soils around the stream. That level exceeds the threshold at which radioactive-waste-disposal regulations kick in"

    "Based on the relative abundance of radium-226 and its far-shorter-lived relative radium-228, the team says it was able to identify fracking wastes as the main source for the radium it detected"

    http:// m.csmonitor. com/Environment/2013/1002/Fracking-waste-water-contaminated-Pennsylvania-streambeds-study-finds-video

    Heres a video of a fish kill
    http://m. youtube. .com/watch?v=KKTSCVzDBkU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DKKTSCVzDBkU

    Take the spaces out of links, the forum rejects posts with regular links

  • Gilbert Gnarley

    West Virginia: Come Drill Us.

  • Jason412

    "Pennsylvania's Department of Environmental Protection collected sediment samples from inside the discharge pipe at the site and found radium-226 levels some 44 times higher than drinking-water standards allow. Several tens of yards downstream, levels were 66 times higher than standards allow. Radium-226 has a half-life of 1,600 years."

    "between 8 and 20 percent of the waste is delivered to treatment plants, with the outflow entering local streams"

    "As for the radium, the researchers measured levels of radium-226 at the outflow some 200 times higher that levels found upstream or in soils around the stream. That level exceeds the threshold at which radioactive-waste-disposal regulations kick in"

    "Based on the relative abundance of radium-226 and its far-shorter-lived relative radium-228, the team says it was able to identify fracking wastes as the main source for the radium it detected"

  • Wowbagger


    Natural gas is totally odorless. The odor comes from mercaptan, a chemical that is generally added to the gas at the well site to make it easily detectible by humans. It is really stinky stuff that smells kind of like rotten cabbage when concentrated. It is detectible by human nose in very small amounts. This is the reason a coal mine with 20 percent methane (the ideal mixture for an explosion) is so dangerous as the gas is undetectable without some instrumentation.

    If the whole room smells of "gas" you have a leaky gas line, furnace, or stove leaking commercial, processed gas.

  • GregG

    Yea, we need to have an emergency session to pass legislation to give them tax exempt status and immunity from any legal accountability of their actions/operations. While we are at it, let's just give them our first born. Gee, and I really was going to try and keep my typing fingers idle through the holidays.

  • Jason412

    I lived in the areas mentioned pre and post drilling, thats factual enough for me.

    Keep buying the propoganda shoved down your throat, because you certainly have no facts to show its not the drilling.

    Thats just the first link I found. When I lived in Steubenville the water looked identical to the water in that jar, and smelled accordingly.

  • WhgFeeling

    How about some verifiable FACTS that the drilling industry has caused the issues you claim?

  • Wowbagger

    Drillers and service companies will focus more in West Virginia, but will continue to locate facilities in Pennsylvania due to the tax and legal structure. The big money will be in well service and industries using the gas and liquids in the long run for the Marcellus, Utica, and other plays. The West Virginia Legislature will loose these unless they fix taxes and litigation.

  • Jason412

    I cant wait to see how happy West Virginian's are when you can see hundreds of dead fish in every stream and river around, as is the case in Washington PA. Or when they turn their shower on and the whole room smells like gas, like the towns along the Ohio River.

    I was all for drilling when I thought it would flood an area with job opportunities, but in PA it certainly didnt. Steubenville Ohio is on top of 2 shale formations, but it has benefited the city residents very little.

    It wasnt a month or two ago they were pushing to be able to drill in the parks around Pittsburgh. Obviously no area is to beautiful for some gas wells.

  • Joe

    "After all, drillers are going to follow the gas". Not sure if you know realize how poignant and ironic this statement in your commentary is Hoppy.