Max Lederer, a 1982 graduate of Marshall University, has been at the center of a conflict over free speech, the independent media and the crossroads with the federal government.
For nearly two decades, Lederer has been publisher of Stars and Stripes, the daily news organization that reports on issues concerning members of the United States Armed Forces and their communities, especially personnel stationed overseas. It traces its roots back to the American Civil War, with continuous publication since World War II.
Stars and Stripes traditionally has operated within the Department of Defense framework while maintaining editorial separation from military chain-of-command interference. Its financial structure is a blend of funding from the Department of Defense and the sale of commercial advertising, print and digital subscriptions and special publishing.
The relationship between the publication and the military hierarchy has come under strain periodically over the years, and that has ratcheted up in recent months.
This past January, Sean Parnell, a spokesman for the defense secretary, criticized Stars and Stripes on his social media account for focusing on “woke distractions,” stating that the Pentagon planned to return Stars and Stripes to its “original mission.”
On July 5, CBS News ran an interview with Stars and Stripes Editor-in-Chief Erik Slavin and reporter Lara Korte headlined “The Battle Over Stars and Stripes” where they described the publication’s traditional mission to provide independent reporting.
Asked in the interview if he had any red lines he would not cross, Slavin replied, “Don’t run a perfectly accurate story, run this instead. Here it is, written by the Pentagon. That would be a red line.”
More than a month later, Stars and Stripes published major investigative reports detailing a worsening mental health crisis, poor living conditions and supply shortages aboard the aircraft carrier USS Abraham Lincoln during its Middle East deployment.
One day after the critical investigation published, Pentagon official Andrew Brey ordered Lederer to fire Slavin and Korte for “insubordination.”
Lederer questioned the firings, citing fundamental differences over leadership and the mission of the paper. Lederer tried to submit his retirement instead.
On August 21, the Pentagon rejected his retirement and fired Lederer, Slavin and Korte simultaneously.
The three filed a lawsuit August 27 against Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and other Pentagon officials in federal court in Washington, D.C., maintaining that the firings violated federal administrative personnel rules and infringed on their First Amendment rights.
On Sept. 4, U.S. District Judge Trevor McFadden denied their emergency request for a preliminary injunction to halt their terminations, ruling that they were unlikely to succeed on their First Amendment claims.
That was an initial ruling, and the lawsuit will keep going.
Last week, West Virginia MetroNews spoke with Lederer about how his time at Marshall shaped his views toward leadership, free speech and independent media. The interview also touched on his continuing relationship with Marshall. And he discussed his view of the recent conflict with the Department of Defense and the unique role of Stars and Stripes in informing military service members and their families.
“I believe in free press. I believe in what Stars and Stripes does. I believe that our men and women who are serving in harm’s way are entitled to have objective, independent, unbiased information, so that they can live their lives and make good decisions,” Lederer told MetroNews at the conclusion of the interview.
“And I believe as citizens, we have the right to know what our men or women are doing in our name, what our treasure is being used for because, in effect, they’re serving us, and we need to know how they’re serving us and how they’re being treated.”
MetroNews: I’m going to go in reverse inverse pyramid because, you know, I think the reason West Virginia MetroNews readers and listeners might connect with you is your longstanding connection with Marshall, and then maybe I’ll get into the the news hook in a moment, but can you just give me that that part of your background, where you grew up, and what led you to Marshall?
Max Lederer: Yeah, I grew up in western New York, north of Niagara Falls, a town called Lockport, New York. It’s on the end of the Erie Canal. When I was graduating, I was looking for something different. I mean, I could have stayed local. There’s lots of universities there, but I was looking to seek other opportunities and expose myself to different culture in the country. This was back in the late ’70s, so I’m a little on the older side, so we didn’t have you know cell phones and the communications that you have today. So the various parts of the country were not as open to everybody as far as exposure.
I had a four-year Reserve Officer Training Corps scholarship, and Marshall accepted those scholarships, so I could go to Marshall and have many of my costs paid for, which was of course an incentive. There are other schools that have done that as well. In addition, though, I liked the educational opportunities that Marshall had, its focus and its direction.
I did not visit Marshall ahead of time. It was a long ways away from me at that point, so I did it sight unseen. You didn’t have websites and things like that, so it was just phone calls and talking to people that got me to Marshall. And when I arrived on my first day, my mom put me on a Trailways bus in western New York, I took the bus and I showed up in Fourth Avenue in Huntington, and I dragged my stuff over to Marshall, and that was my beginning. But that was a really great decision for me. I enjoyed my time there, and it was a great experience.
MetroNews: You were, according to my reading, you were a political science major rather than a major in the journalism program. But you’ve made your career in journalism after having gone on to get your law degree. How did your time at Marshall shape your worldview, your view of the free press and its role — how you think about free speech and the role of the news media?
Lederer: Marshall was a defining point in my professional development. It was a turning point. When I came to Marshall, I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do professionally. I was still trying to figure that out, as many freshmen do. You know, at 18 years old, what do you know? You don’t know anything yet. You don’t know where you’re going to go. But while I was at Marshall, for the first time, totally independent, away from — I couldn’t go home on weekends and have my mom do my laundry or cook food. I was really on my own.
So I sought out and found fantastic mentors and professors, but I also discovered unique opportunities that Marshall offered. I became part of student government. I served on the student court. I did things with student activities, and I learned in that process the value of leadership and to experience what it was like to have people rely on you.
It also taught me to evaluate situations. Classroom knowledge, as you go to university, is absolutely essential. That that’s your foundation as you move forward. But life experience is also invaluable, and Marshall provided me all those opportunities to grow and experiment.
I was lucky enough to do well, and I was able to attend many honors classes, and in international affairs with political science, that taught me and exposed me to thinking beyond the community in which I was living in. I learned the impact of our actions can have on a national or world stage, and it awakened me to the value of hearing what others have to say and having my own voice.
I was on the debate team for a while, and that is a practice of presenting a point of view and having somebody else present point a point of view, and then responding to their point. And when you go through that discipline, you also learn that there are various viewpoints to the same issue.
I think American free speech and press defines our democracy. It makes us unique on the world stage, and that’s informed also from my many years living overseas with the U.S. military and Stars and Stripes. And I think it’s invaluable. And I learned those concepts while I was at Marshall. That’s what eventually drew me to where I am today.
I did go to law school, and my beginning of my career was all law. I did do international law when I was living overseas, but when I came to Stripes, I was initially their attorney, and I like to tell people that after four years of learning all their secrets, they had to make me part of management.
Seriously, though, as an attorney, I thought it was important that I understand the organization, I understand the value, I understand their principles — and that led me to the opportunity to be a leader in the organization and not just their legal advice. I got to have the opportunity to put my hands on the levers of the operation and guide what it was going to do and how it delivered independent news and journalism to the community.
MetroNews: Quite a career path. To divert back to Marshall for just a moment before turning to Stars and Stripes, you remain actively involved. How and why do do you maintain such involvement with your alma mater?
Lederer: My oldest son was looking for a university. He had a bunch of choices we looked at, school after school after school, and I said, “Hey, we’re out in this area. Let’s go look at Marshall.” And when we went to Marshall, he said, “Oh, this is the place for me.”
So I had been disengaged from Marshall for about 30 years, but when he started to attend the university, I started to reconnect. And I realized I had to pay to others what I got out of Marshall, how it helped me in my career and and my life.
First, I was elected to the Marshall University’s alumni relations board, and that was an opportunity to give my time back to the university, attend events and expose other people to the university and reconnect them to support the students that were there.
And then, as time progressed, I was selected and I serve on the Marshall University Foundation Board, which was an opportunity for me to find other ways to help people who want to attend Marshall and those who are there to continue to stay and have life-changing opportunities that I had, and that’s my motivation for continuing to be there.
Even though my both of my sons have attended Marshall, graduated, have undergrad degrees and graduate degrees, I continue to stay connected because I believe in what Marshall does, and I believe that I can help help others have that experience.
MetroNews: That’s quite a legacy, considering you showed up sight unseen when you were a youngster.
Lederer: Yes, it’s been an interesting path, and at every point, I have felt that I really made great decisions along the way, starting with what I learned as an undergraduate.
MetroNews: You’ve mentioned to me already that you began with Stars and Stripes as the attorney, but why were you drawn to the organization? What did you find appealing about being there, and why did you stay?
Lederer: While I was on active duty, I served during the first Gulf War. I served in Saudi, Iraq and Kuwait in combat operations. During that time, we did not have radio and TV. We didn’t have cell phones. We didn’t have websites, and we relied on the information we got at Stars and Stripes. It told us what was going on our left flank, our right flank, what was going on behind us, to some extent, what we were facing in front of us.
It also gave us a touch of what was happening back in our hometown areas where we came from, where we deployed from, and we knew that people there were safe. We also were informed on how the community in the United States supported us.
I think that’s really important. I think one of the lessons that I have learned over time is during Vietnam, when we did not have a free and open communication with the press and the military, that over time the community in the United States began to sour on the operation because they didn’t understand what was going on, they didn’t understand the importance, and then when they learned the costs, they didn’t have the foundational principles. They came to see the operation as bad.
So during the first Gulf War, the media was included; it was embedded. And community in the United States was supporting us. It was a time when people had ribbons around the antennas of their car, around trees out in their front yard, signs in in their yards, and they understood the distinction between supporting our forces, supporting those who are sacrificing, and maybe agreeing or not agreeing with the policy of why we’re there.
That that was a significant impact on us who were serving. So when I was leaving active duty, I was looking for a new opportunity and I saw that Stars and Stripes had an opening for a lawyer in their Europe office, and that’s why I applied. I felt that it would be great to work for an organization that has such an enormous impact on military communities’ lives and stands for the important principle that as serving men and women, we deserve to know what is happening around us and why our service matters.
MetroNews: Could you give me — well, really, give people who may not be familiar — an overview of Stars and Stripes? Who is the audience? What does it cover? How does it circulate? That must be evolving. And then, you know, I think we’re going to get to a question of the financial structure of Stars and Stripes, but if you can give sort of an overview of that too.
Lederer: Yeah, Stars and Stripes is unique in the world. I’ve met with the British Ministry of Defense. I’ve met with Taiwanese defense officials. I’ve met with Albanians and many other countries over time. Nobody has an organization like Stars and Stripes.
Stars and Stripes is an independent news organization that operates under the First Amendment of our United States Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is part of the federal government. The employees are federal employees. They have a government financial partnership where part of our funding comes from the government, and part is self-generated revenue through news activities.
The important part of this is that Stars and Stripes has a responsibility to tell the story of the military community to the military community. So, active duty, reserve, National Guard, family members, DoD civilians. We’re telling their story.
Not only do we tell their story about what they do day in and day out, we we provide them information of “There’s a roadblock is at the entrance to to a gate on the installation, you need to use a different entrance.” Or, “There’s a change in the uniform.” Or, “There’s a change in the physical fitness test.” Or, “How can you get education?” “How can you bring your dog with you when you PCS to Korea?” — permanent changing station. All those life things are very important at Star and Stripes.
We also tell truth to power. If there is a problem with the water in the housing in the military community in Okinawa, we tell that story. I think that’s really important. Somebody has to bring those stories to the front. It enlightens leaders and those who are more enlightened themselves can realize they’re hearing things that may not they may not otherwise know. They’re hearing what’s important to their community, and it gives them an opportunity to fix, make things better, or to explain why things are the way they are.
An independent press also gives a voice to the community. Without that voice, they did not have another way to say what they want to say. They’re busy doing their jobs. They’re busy taking their kids to child care or to school, and Stripes becomes that voice. We’re there to look at their issues, and sometimes our reporting is explaining why something happens, and and it’s it’s redefining and supportive of what the leadership is doing. But sometimes it’s also saying, “Oh wait, maybe the leadership doesn’t understand there’s a problem here, and and they need to address it,” and I think that’s what news, independent news, is all about.
MetroNews: Now’s probably a good time, I think, to just provide an overview of the current conflict and how it’s evolved. And you know, to me, it looks two pronged: The stated source of the conflict was a CBS news report, but it appears there’s an underlying conflict regarding coverage of the USS Abraham Lincoln.
Lederer: There’s a lot of pressure on independent journalism today. Elected officials that operate in a divided political environment like we have today, where there’s extreme viewpoints on the right and left of anything, it’s difficult for an elected official to be able to project the message that they want to execute the mission that they want.
Sometimes independent journalism is a problem for them. We ask questions that are uncomfortable. We probe in directions that are different than the elected official wants to go to, and sometimes we probe at the foundation of the message. And so sometimes partisan officials, people who are appointed or elected, feel like the independent journalism is in the way, and they can’t get done what hey want to get done.
But I think it’s part of our national debate, and it’s extremely important. In this environment, there have been a lot of efforts to limit access, to silence contrary views or control independent journalism.
With Stars and Stripes, we’ve been going through some of the similar things. There have been actions taken that I think are viewpoint discrimination and are censorship. So, for example, Stars and Stripes was directed to no longer utilize independent news wire services, Associated Press, Washington Post, as context in our publication. That’s just one example.
Another example is we were directed no longer to have comics in the paper. Sunday comics, Beetle Bailey, Family Circus. Why? Why is that so harmful that people out there in the theater can read that and enjoy that. Those are censorship things that should not be occurring with an independent news organization.
That caused my editor in chief Erik Slavin and one of my reporters Lara Korte to speak up and do a CBS News interview that was looking at the continuing independence of Stars and Stripes.
The independence of Stars and Stripes is not just important to military community; it’s important to other press, the United States as well as international press. We demystify what happens behind the wire, what goes on within a military community, to those organizations who don’t have the access to do that same kind of journalism, and to know whether that journalism Stripes provided is truly independent and unbiased and objective is really important.
So they did that interview. The leadership of the Department of Defense was unhappy with that. They felt that they didn’t have a right to speak their personal opinion in regards to that and directed me to fire those two individuals. I didn’t agree with that concept. I asked questions, but I didn’t get any answers about why this was necessary. So I shared with the department that I was going to resign and retire rather than serve those notifications of termination. Instead, they fired all three of us for expressing our viewpoints regarding the policies in controlling Stars and Stripes.
MetroNews: You know, people may not understand the financial structure of of Stars and Stripes. My understanding, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that roughly half of the funding is through the Department of Defense, and the other is through advertising and other more private means. Does that balance make it difficult to remain, to maintain the independence from the Department of Defense? And that’s been a struggle for years, right? But but sometimes Congress or the leaders of the Department of Defense have had to intervene?
Lederer: You’re correct. It’s a sharing of cost. Why do we have the sharing of cost? One of the reasons is, it is not reasonable to expect a service member serving in Bahrain to have quarters in their body armor to buy a paper. That paper or access to a website or other content should come to them at no cost when they’re in those particular situations, such as people serving in Germany or people serving in Japan.
It’s reasonable to ask to them to contribute to the cost of the organization. There’s a couple things, and in one way it applies to what they feel is value, that they’re willing to spend some of their treasure to support the organization.
Additionally, other entities want to reach the military community. They want to sell their products to them, whether it’s a car or whether they want to convince the Department of Defense to use their company to buy a new jet, and they should contribute to the cost of supporting the military community as well. And those are the advertising dollars that we receive as an organization to help provide independent news and information to the community operations. The percentage goes up and down based on operations.
During times of war, when we had more people deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq, when we had significant numbers deployed into those operations, we do receive a greater amount of appropriations from the taxpayer because it’s just not possible to retain the revenue for those serving, as well as advertisers aren’t really selling cars to someone serving in Kabul or Kandahar or Tikrit, Iraq. They’re not buying cars while while they’re there. They’re worried about their life, their safety, and their mission. Consequently, you need more support.
In times when we’re not in heavy combat, such as, I’ll go back to the 1990s — Stars and Stripes self-generate revenue was closer to 65 or 70 percent of the total cost of the organization. So it does fluctuate from time to time.
It does give its challenges. There have been times when leaders in the Department of Defense who just felt that Stars and Stripes was an annoyance for them ,caused them difficulties that they didn’t want to deal with, they felt, “Well if we just don’t provide the support, then that will minimize Stripes’ activities or eliminate the organization.” And as I said before, enlightened people within the department as well as within Congress, have said ‘No, no, no, that that’s a mistake. We need to have this organization. We need to have this content. There’s nobody else that’s going to do it. It’s what we, it’s what our men and women deserve when they’re sacrificing their lives,” and and it’s been restored each time there’s been a challenge.
MetroNews: I don’t know that we’ve we’ve broadened our discussion yet to the USS Abraham Lincoln coverage, which has played a role in this. You know, it’s it seems to me it’s been no holds barred coverage, truthful, look in the mirror coverage. But other people may view it as negative, or that it would affect morale more broadly. But can you talk me through why it’s important to have that kind of, you know, look in the mirror, let’s face the truth coverage?
Lederer: Yeah. So I will give you a little bit of context first. I do believe that that Abraham Lincoln and other similar coverage is a contributing factor to the decision to terminate myself and my two other employees. I believe the CBS interview and my speaking out about why I think the policies of the administration with Stars and Stripes were not the right ones were the the electrifying event, but I believe the contributing factor was the content that you just mentioned.
It is very important that there be a voice to pointing out things that aren’t quite right, so that we can do better. I’ll use two examples. Abraham Lincoln is one, and the other one I will use is the evacuation of family members and other military members from Bahrain at the beginning of this conflict.
In both cases, Stars and Strides pointed out difficulties. In the case of the Abraham Lincoln, you have people who have been at sea for an extraordinary long period of time without proper resupply, without proper maintenance of their ship, without proper communication to family and loved ones as they’ve been deployed. That affected morale. It affected efficiency. It affected the capability from a combat perspective of that activity.
The initial response from the president was they can stay out longer; from the Secretary of Defense and his press spokesman Sean Parnell, is that it was fake news, that it was not true.
But what we learned after that is that the Abraham Lincoln was returned; it was sent back home to its permanent station to be refitted and and to give relief to those service members, and the USS George Washington has replaced it on station. I think that is confirmation that the reporting was accurate and correct, and that a change needed to occur.
I do believe without and later, as a result of Stripes’ reporting, other media putting a spotlight on the situation that the situation would have continued, that sailors would have been at risk and harm that they didn’t need to be at.
It’s the same thing with the evacuation of family members and military members from Bahrain. When they sent them out, they sent them to all kinds of different places, not necessarily to their families where they came from or with a plan. And these people were put down in Turkey, in Germany, in the United States, and then moved again with no direction of, “Are they returning to Bahrain? Where are their kids going to go to school?” Their assignment was in Bahrain, so they weren’t getting the same kind of housing and other support in other locations. Some people told us that they have spent 20, $30,000 of their own money to sustain themselves, which for most people that that’s enormous amount of money and and not sustainable long term, and they didn’t have guidance on what was going to happen to the future.
So again, we gave a voice to that, and I believe now the military is addressing those issues and trying to find a better way, and to help those people migrate, to find ways to get their kids into schools wherever they’re living temporarily.
Those stories are very important because it gives leadership the opportunity to make things better and to make the force better, and it gives those in uniform serving in harm’s way, comfort and confidence that their family is being taken care of. That’s why that content is so important. Without Stars and Stripes, we may not have gotten those stories, or may not have gotten them timely until something more catastrophic catastrophic had happened.
MetroNews: After the conflict with Stars and Stripes hit with the with the Department of Defense, you and your colleagues received notification that you were being removed from your jobs and then sued in federal court. Can you give me a broad outline of your position and your colleagues’ position in that lawsuit?
Lederer: Yes, so we sued on two bases. One is violation of our First Amendment rights to speak our personal opinion as part of free press, free speech, and secondly, we believe that the process that was used violates our due process rights under the Fifth Amendment.
That litigation is ongoing. There was an emergency initial attempt by us for injunctive relief to delay the actual termination so we could continue to be employed and continue to do our jobs. That’s a pretty high standard because it’s extraordinary measure. The court did not rule in our favor on that, but that didn’t end the litigation. We are now into the substantive litigation as to whether our constitutional rights have been violated and what the remedy should be. And I think that takes some time as we go along,
MetroNews: The judge’s order that just came out, the order denying the the preliminary injunction relief, makes a distinction between comments made in private capacity and comments made in a public capacity. And my reading is, he concludes that your colleagues made their statements to CBS in their public capacity as employees of Stars and Stripes, and therefore would not receive the same level of First Amendment protections because they were essentially representing the employer.
He also doesn’t seem to buy, the judge, I mean, the contention that the stated reason for the firings was the interview with CBS. He doesn’t seem to think that that was actually pretextual to the different reason — coverage of the USS Abraham Lincoln’s challenges and morale difficulties. Given that it’s an active case still, do you want to address those things, or do you have any any perspective?
Lederer: Well, I don’t want to go in too deeply about the litigation strategy and what’s going on. I will just reiterate that the standard at this first step for an extraordinary measure is higher, and he felt that we did not reach that standard than the standard we have for the basic litigation because we were asking for a unique action at that point. The case has more to be developed, more discovery to occur, testimony to be provided, more argument to be made. I still feel strongly that employees of any organization, including government organizations, have free speech. You don’t give up all of your free speech as an employee, and that’s at the crux of this particular litigation.
MetroNews: I’ve seen some comments. I think by you, that the comments that were made on CBS, those public expressions, actually represented the longstanding history and point of view of Stars and Stripes.
Lederer: That’s that’s correct. It wasn’t the first time that staff have ever given interviews and expressed their personal opinion about operations. To, after many years of that occurring, to all of a sudden say, “Oh no, the rules are changed and you don’t get to do that any more” seems disingenuous. In my opinion, I think Erik and Lara, in their interviews, made it very clear that it was their personal opinion, and I did in my interview as well with Stars and Stripes — that it was my personal opinion; it wasn’t the opinion or policy of the organization. And that is the definition of personal speech versus official speech,
MetroNews: This moment, as we speak, you are retired, whether you intend to be or not? What’s happened in the courtroom has not affected your retirement?
Lederer: No, I am retired, so the courtroom has not affected that. But I am asking for reinstatement so that I can help Stars and Strips to where I think it should be and should continue to be and where it has been.
MetroNews: Any any plans in the meantime? You’ve you’ve been in Japan speaking before foreign correspondents. I think you’re busy in other ways. You you have unexpected free time, I suppose, but are also in demand.
Lederer: Yeah, so in in my time today, I still intend to do a lot with Marshall. Hopefully actually, I have to do a little bit more time than I have in the past. But I am also, “OK, what does life look like now as as a retired person? What do I want to do? What do I focus on? What are my hobbies?” And enjoying time with my family as well.
MetroNews: You know, I’m struck by some parallels to an even newer free press situation, and that Is the president removing CNN, Politico and MSNow from the ability to to to be in the White House and and provide daily coverage from the White House. Do you see parallels there? Is it a completely different situation? Is it just a general encroachment or conflict between the media and the executive branch, and maybe a lack of understanding on what the media’s role is?
Lederer: I do believe that the removal of those three organizations from the White House press corps access is viewpoint discrimination. The president has said so that he didn’t like their coverage. He disagreed with their coverage. That’s viewpoint discrimination.
As I said, I do believe that’s a contributing factor in my termination, and Erik and Lara. That parallel exists. The actual actions are different. Ours is terminations. Theirs is removal. However, at the end of the day, it’s an effort to silence the voice or chill the voice of being able to speak out and express opinion, and to be able to provide coverage as to what the government’s doing, and ask questions: Do that good, solid news gathering journalism that we rely on in this country.
MetroNews: Do you think that that kind of conflict is going to recede and cool down, or do you think it will continue to heighten, or is it just a conflict that is always there, has always been there, and fights like yours along the way mean that the free press remains free.
Lederer: So I do believe that there is always tension between the fourth estate, a free press, and the government. That that’s the role. The free press is looking at what the government does, reporting on it, asking questions. So there always is tension. There always is back and forth. There has been points of heightened conflict under Democrats as well as Republicans. It doesn’t matter. It’s always there to some extent. I think that is healthy. People looking at both sides of an issue is a healthy part.
I believe that our country through the electoral process, through the governing process, will return us to a more less emotional state, where we coexist in a way that we can have different points of view, respect those points of view and and move forward and govern and report in an environment which is respectful. I think cooler heads will prevail, and we will return to a better environment as we’ve had at different points in the past.